User login

Club News

Due to the current ongoing situation, the June 2020 DTCA AGM, did not take place.  We will try to reschedule for later in the year once matters are clearer.

Production of the DTCA special edition Omnisport model has also been postponed.

 

New Comments

French boxes, general

1 hour 13 min ago

New arrivals

12 hours 18 min ago

--27a and 300 Massey-Harris Tractor (1948-66)

12 hours 37 min ago

French boxes, general

14 hours 33 min ago
 

--27a and 300 Massey-Harris Tractor (1948-66)

16 hours 16 min ago

Dinky Toy Sales, Ordering, Promotions, Retailing etc.

18 hours 56 min ago

Dinky Toy Sales, Ordering, Promotions, Retailing etc.

19 hours 2 min ago

Dinky Toy Sales, Ordering, Promotions, Retailing etc.

19 hours 4 min ago

Dinky Toy Sales, Ordering, Promotions, Retailing etc.

19 hours 7 min ago

Dinky Toys leaflet Airfix Stand Toy Fair at Earls Court 1980 ??

19 hours 19 min ago

-521, 921and 409 Bedford Articulated Lorry (1948-63)

21 hours 29 min ago

French boxes, general

1 day 9 hours ago

New arrivals

2 days 15 hours ago

-972 Coles 20 ton AEC Lorry Mounted Crane (1955-69)

3 days 2 hours ago

-796 Healey Sports Boat on Trailer (1960-62)

3 days 12 hours ago

New arrivals

3 days 19 hours ago

Meetings between DTCA members

5 days 16 hours ago

-150 and 600 Royal Tank Corps Personnel / Armoured Corps Personnel (1937-55)

6 days 7 hours ago

-796 Healey Sports Boat on Trailer (1960-62)

6 days 8 hours ago

-965 Euclid Rear Dump Truck (1955-69)

6 days 9 hours ago

-936 Leyland 8-Wheel(ed) Chassis (1964-69)

6 days 10 hours ago

-150 and 600 Royal Tank Corps Personnel / Armoured Corps Personnel (1937-55)

6 days 12 hours ago

--23b Hotchkiss Racing Car (1935-48)

6 days 19 hours ago

Boxes and Quality Inspection Stamps

1 week 2 hours ago

-965 Euclid Rear Dump Truck (1955-69)

1 week 10 hours ago

New arrivals

1 week 1 day ago

--23b Hotchkiss Racing Car (1935-48)

1 week 1 day ago

--23b Hotchkiss Racing Car (1935-48)

1 week 1 day ago

--23d Auto Union Racing Car / Large Closed Racing Car (1936-1950)

1 week 1 day ago

--23d Auto Union Racing Car / Large Closed Racing Car (1936-1950)

1 week 1 day ago

-796 Healey Sports Boat on Trailer (1960-62)

1 week 1 day ago

-936 Leyland 8-Wheel(ed) Chassis (1964-69)

1 week 1 day ago

-965 Euclid Rear Dump Truck (1955-69)

1 week 2 days ago

-965 Euclid Rear Dump Truck (1955-69)

1 week 2 days ago

Visitors

  • Total Visitors: 1622715
  • Registered Users: 244
  • Published Nodes: 1523
  • Since: 09/22/2020 - 07:58
33 posts / 0 new
Last post

Pages

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
Offline
DTCA MemberUSA

--23a and 220 Racing Car (3rd casting) (1946-56)

The Small open Racing Car was re-issued in 1946 and continued until about 1952, although the US catalogs still show it in the 1954/55 one.  Mine shows an added web in the rear section, that was not present pre-war,

       Best regards,  Terry

 

 

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hello Terry, thank you for the nice pictures of a very nice example! I am a bit confused. Looking at the header of this thread I wonder, was there a 4th casting then? In my opinion 1952 was not the end of this model, as suggested by the header. It disappeared from the catalogues as late as 1956, as renumbered no. 220, and I believe nothing changed in the casting after 1952. Just the axle ends became rounded and I believe only the version shown above (silver with red hubs and rounded axle ends), was available since 1954.

By the way, the second state lasted till the end of the 1940s in my opinion, in several colours and indeed still without the strengthening strip in between. I cannot explain the data 1942-1945 in the header there, Meccano was producing war stuff then, no small racing cars. The model was discontinued 1948/49 (at least on the UK and Commonwealth markets) and re-introduced in 1952, indeed, with the strip added. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right the headers should be adjusted.

My post-war examples below. It's not the original contents of the trading box they're sitting on. Looking at the colour and the number of the trade box the one on the back, with silver hubs and smooth axle ends is the best possible candidate. The blue one is a second state example, with black hubs and crimped axle ends, available ca. 1945-1948/49. 

In the June 1952 MM issue the re-introduction of some outdated, previously discontinued models was announced, among them the 22a Small Racing Car. A page of the (NL) 1955 catalogue shows the last mentioning (no picture) in a Dinky catalogue. Kind regards, Jan 

   

Bungo's picture
Bungo
Offline
DTCA Member

Should this thread really be about the postwar 23a Racing Car, here are the facts:

  • In 1946, only the British 23a Racing Car got reissued, renamed "Small Open Racing Car", no more French 23a.
  • Thicker crimped axles than prewar, no raised number circles anymore (already abandoned prewar).
  • At first, many prewar leftovers (smooth rims, prewar color scheme) were used, gradually replaced with postwar black ridged rims and postwar color schemes red/silver, silver/red and blue/silver, always with racing number 4. 
  • From about 1947 with central reinforcing rib.
  • From about 1949 only silver/red with silver ridged hubs.
  • From about 1950 with additional reinforcing rib in the tail, both ribs slightly rounded, axles domed on both sides.
  • Soon only with tail rib, central rib abandoned, red ridged hubs.
  • 1954 renumbered 220.
  • 1956 production ceased.

This is my current understanding, comments will be more than welcome.

Best regards from Thailand

Walter

Bungo's picture
Bungo
Offline
DTCA Member

In my drawer, the front row shows most (if not all) postwar variations described in my previous posting.

Best regards from Thailand

Walter

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Walter, a nice treat to see another glimpse of your wonderful racing cars collection. And thank you for the very helpful detailed list.

In my opinion the definite discontinuation of crimped axles ends on all remaining (mostly prewar designed) models took place in about 1952. I cannot prove, but practice does not seem to contradict this up till now.

The obscure period 1949-1952 still is not very clear to me. All racers and aircraft are said to have been discontinued in 1949, and some re-introduced in 1952, but there are examples which I think still have been produced in that period, but perhaps for 'foreign' markets only.

An interesting detail below, of the Dinky Toy Job List Index, without date or memo number, but which dates from late 1951 in my opinion. There, the pre-war racers are recorded, those definitely not to be re-issued mid-1952 struck out. Kinds regards, Jan   

Bungo's picture
Bungo
Offline
DTCA Member

Hi Jan,

Unfortunately, the list is not fully visible. Please send again.

Walter

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hello Walter, did something change in your discussion? I remember you asking a question about the dating of the list. Well, subsequent to that question I have dived a little bit deeper into this undated index list. My dating by heart (above) should be adjusted a little bit. In fact this list appears to have two ‘layers’.

Looking  more closely at the models and their assembly drawings listed, there appears to be a basic cluster, apparently the original list, that was completed in December 1948. These models and their assy’s are listed in a more or less systematic order of  topics. Within these topics there is an alphabetical order of models. All models in the clear alphabetical order have their drawings completed before January 1949. The last one I can find there is the Estate Car, the known drawings of which date from December 1948 and January 1949. At the end of these listings there are additions, not necessarily alphabetical and sometimes in a slightly different kind of handwriting. These are all models of which the assy’s have been completed in January 1949 and after.

The Estate Car is right on the ‘watershed’, its large design drawing for the Body and the drawing for the Base having been completed in December 1948 and the assembly drawing in January 1949 (see the GBofDT page 178). Therefore, it was included in the ‘basic’ section under ‘E’, as well as in an additional listing of post-1948 cars under ‘Motor Cars’. So the basic list will have been compiled in December 1948 and completed in January 1949.

The additional listings are placed below the initial pre-1949 listings, as long as space allowed. The later ones which could not be added are squeezed in between on less logical places. The youngest model/assy I can find included there is the A.E.C. Monarch Shell Chemicals Tanker, which dates of 11 December 1950. The subsequent known assy, of the Big Bedford, of 1 February 1952 and all subsequent, later assy’s are wanting. So it appears that this list was discontinued and closed in January 1951.

In short: Basic list closed in December 1948 and completed January 1949, additional listings added from February 1949 and discontinued in January 1951.

The racers detail above is from the ‘basic list’. The dating of the strikings is hard to tell. They may have been done even before completion of the basic list but also much later.

I think I will now hurry to combine the five pages into one pdf and send them to Dave and Al for inclusion in the Documents>Factory Drawings section of our website. This way all of you can draw your own conclusions. Kind regards, Jan           

Bungo's picture
Bungo
Offline
DTCA Member

Yes, Jan, I had my original comment removed and replaced when I realised that the list didn't look that "kosher" and needed further examination. Let's see.

Best regards
Walter

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

Nice to see that new avatar of yours! I posted such a picture many, many years ago, but where?

It is the 24 August 1957 issue cover of the Donald Duck, the Dutch Walt Disney strip weekly. The artist was apparently inspired by the Dinky Toys of his children, using some of them as examples. Easy to identify are the Bedford Van, Volkswagen and 555 Fire Engine on the slope, the Austin Somerset and Ford Fordor(?) down below, and the Oxo Van on the tray. Kind regards, Jan  

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

For the time being: here are the images of the job list index. An important document for the early post war period, with models mentioned that were never issued, apparently deleted models and job numbers of assy's missing up till now. This one and many others are in my possession and I will make them available in the relevant document thread in the course of time, for research and safeguarding their information. Kind regards, Jan 

Bungo's picture
Bungo
Offline
DTCA Member

Jan,
on your lists the last column apparently contains the job number. What do the numbers/remarks in the column before refer to (e.g. 413 for the racing cars)?
Walter

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Walter, I presume there was a huge system of entries to all drawings stored in the Meccano factory, not just for Dinky Toys but also for Hornby Trains, Meccano construction etc. The job lists mentioned here should contain the references to those jobs and the related jobs for producing one item each. Those lists may have been stored in dossiers and gave access to the drawings themselves. Anybody being better informed about this, please comment. There must be a thread somewhere dealing with factory drawings. Even if not understanding exactly the precise functioning of this system, this very index list unveils quite some other information. I also have a later one. Kind regards, Jan 

Bungo's picture
Bungo
Offline
DTCA Member

On the lists there must be a title on top of each column. What's the title of this second last column?

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hello Walter, you will have to click on the image in order to see the whole picture! The header says 'Job List no.'. Kind regards, Jan 

Bungo's picture
Bungo
Offline
DTCA Member

Got it.
Sorry.
Walter

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

A little set of new photos below, showing the early post-war (post-1946) red/silver and blue/silver examples, with black ridged hubs (and with central reinforcing ribs, 'hollow' window inside and crimped axle ends) and the later post-war (post-1952) silver/red examples, one with silver hubs, the other very common one with red hubs (both with central rib deleted and tiny reinforcing ribs in the tail section added, domed axle ends). Kind regards Jan  

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
Offline
DTCA MemberFrance

This is what I have concerning Cpt. Eyston and the M.G.

The EX 127, the "Magic Midget" (Dinky Toys ref. 23), was completed late in 1931 to replace the destroyed EX 120 and designed with the express purpose of smashing every Class H record (750 c.c.). In its illustrious career this car set numerous records, was the first of its class to surpass 120 m.p.h. (193 Km/h) and was later sold to Bobby Kohlrausch, a noted German driver who continued to break records on the Continent, where its design was of great interest to German pre-war engineers. EX 127 finished it's career in the Mercedes R & D department.

The next car for Captain Eyston was the legendary EX 135 (Dinky Toys ref. 23a), based on the K3 chassis with both racing and record-breaking bodies and built to assault the Class G (1100 cc.) records. The original streamlined body was painted in cream and chocolate stripes, winning for the car the nickname "Humbug", as in 1934 it re-wrote the record books for its class. The next year, with the corporate ban on works-sponsored competition, Eyston sold the car. Two years later, Kimber and Goldie Gardner, a well-known racing figure, decided to re-acquire the Humbug, add a Reid Railton designed completely enclosed body (Dinky Toys ref. 23p) and attempt to break both Class G and F records. They were completely successful in both attempts, with the car becoming the first 1100 c.c. car to exceed 200 m.p.h. (322 Km/h). Following World War II, Lieutenant Colonel Gardner had EX 135 again rebuilt with a 750 c.c. six cylinder Magnette engine modified so that the number of operating cylinders could be quickly changed. For Records in Class H in 1946 the car ran on all six cylinders. In 1947, it ran on four cylinders for a Class I (500 c.c.) record of 118.1 m.p.h. After Nuffield management discontinued with factory assistance in 1935, Gardner removed the "MG" name, fitted the car with a Jaguar 2 litre engine and took the Class E record. Another change in management at Nuffield, and the fact that the Italians had taken the Class I record from England, lured Gardner back. Abingdon modified the engine capacity and in 1949 Gardner recaptured the 500 c.c. record on just three cylinders at a speed of 154.8 m.p.h.. In 1950 all but two cylinders were blocked off and the records fell to the fabulous MG in Class J (500 cc.) at 121.09 m.p.h.. It was suggested that if there was a class for single cylinder engines Gardner would have attempted that as well! The next year, sporting a TD engine, EX 135 ran on the Utah salt flats to take more records in Class F. In 1952, both Gardner and his 18 year old flyer retired. In its career, wearing an assortment of bodies and engines, the venerable EX 135 broke the world record ten times in eight different classes, a tribute to the builders and the driver. EX 135 is now preserved at the Heritage Motor Centre in Gaydon U.K.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

All post-war versions but one below, I presume. The immediately post-war smooth hubs version wanting.

DavidT
Offline
DTCA Member

Good morning once again.

Have been enjoying reading all the contributed information each of you have provided and very interesting.

When looking at my 23 & 23a racing cars trying to place them in chronological order have stumbled across a few questions in the post war period that I would like answered if possible or my assuptions and findings confirmed or corrected..

There seems to be three recognised casting changes, but there are four different mould changes in the post war period alone. They are;-

No transverse casting webs, same as the prewar castings I think, only found with crimped axels, think 46-47ish

Central casting transverse web added, again, think only crimped axels, think 48-51ish

With Central transvers Web but now with a rear transverse Web, think only domed axel ends, think 52-54ish

Without the central transvers web but the rear web kept, domed axels and red wheels think 54-56

Also noted in some previous comments is that they were not produced between 49-52 what is the evidence of this? Have looked at the price lists that were published and can see the omissions of certain models, is this the considered evidence?

When is considerd date that the change from crimped axels to domed axels occured?

Also wheel colour on this model, am I correct in thinking that domed axels only have the red and silver wheel colours and red only, from 54-56.

That concludes that all black wheels have the crimped axels.does that make the dropping of the black wheels the same date as the introduction of the domed axels.

Sorry for all this but been studying the 23 series and trying to understand the chronological order of life of the 23 series..

The post war colour schemes, the all red and all blue bodies with silver flashes seem to be limited to the crimped axel period and only found with black wheels, where as the silver bodied through out the post war period.

Could you please confirm my understanding or correct me if I am wrong.

David

DavidT
Offline
DTCA Member

Just double- checked the models I have with both central and rear transverse ribs, each have domed axels with silver wheels, any different please comment.

David

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
Offline
DTCA MemberFrance

Jan W

I do not think that there is a version with smooth hubs and domed axels as there are several versions with ridged hubs and crimped axles. This is until one is found.

Many pre-war models have domed axels at one end and crimped at the other. This may create a confusion.

 

David T

Your listing seems to be correct, so far a complete list of all the variations has not been published.

I am missing a large picture of the underside with both transverse webs. can you please provide one either here or by email.

Kind regards

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

Probably a misunderstanding Jacques, I just mean a version with smooth hubs. Of course this, together with crimped axle ends, is the only possible combination - talking about post-war examples. Kind regards, Jan 

DavidT
Offline
DTCA Member

Agree there is definately no smooth hubs with domed axels, if they exist they will almost certainly have crimped at both ends axels. Thus far have not seen any with smooth axels. Were they issued Christmas 1945 when I think most of the smooth wheels were issued. Following that initial period think then the ridged wheels were only used, as suspect the stock of smooth wheels were used during the first Christmas period or the prewar moulds used with improved metal.

I am not sure of the date the new mould for the ridged wheels was first introduced, I suppose somebody may have the original drawings.

Have four examples with both webs, will provid photograph when worked out how to transfer images.

David

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
Offline
DTCA MemberFrance

The drawing for the Supertoys hub is known but I have not yet seen the drawing for the ridged hubs.

DavidT
Offline
DTCA Member

There is another subtle difference between the crimped axel ends and the domed axel ends and that is the drivers colour.It seems that the domed axel ends have the driver and cockpit the same as the body, silver, whereas the crimped axels have the driver and cockpit the same colour as the flash, any different please comment.David

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
Offline
DTCA MemberFrance

David,

You are correct, this applies omly to the models with ridged hubs.

 

DavidT
Offline
DTCA Member

Have photographed the four post war versions of casting together, the two crimped axel versions of casting, the casting with two webs singular and finally the two versions of casting with the domed axels.

David

DavidT
Offline
DTCA Member

Think I have managed it but only one photograph at a time, so here is the next the four post war versions.

 

David

DavidT
Offline
DTCA Member

two rmaing photos

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands

Thank you David. Nice to see all these inside variants together! Kind regards, Jan 

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
Offline
DTCA MemberFrance

Hi David T and everybody,Thank you for these interesting pictures. Could you please provide a better one for this variation without the string on the front axle and give the accurate thickness of the middle web ? There may be a variation with a thicker web but this remains to be proved. There also seem to be two different shapes for this web, a straight one and a curved one. The above been the thin curved oneand this one the thick straight one.Thank you for your help.Jacques

Pages