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-979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

DISCUSSION TRANSFERED FROM "WHEEL VARIATIONS".


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Is the Newmarket Horse Box unusual with plastic hubs ? I recently bought one so fitted, but all the pictures I've found online so far show metal hubs.

The baseplate is the later version.

Fred7A


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

The Newmarket Horse Box with plastic hubs I have never seen before. I have only seen this model with light yellow metal and with dark yellow metal hubs. I would love to see a picture of your Horse Box. There are more models with plastic hubs that are hardly ever seen like the Guy Warrior Snowplough, the Mighty Antar with Propellor and the 984/985 Car Carrier and Trailer.

Kind regards,

Rob


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Fred I have never seen one with plastic hubs either but who has seen everything ?

I am looking for a large picture of the first type base plate in grey to insert between those above.

The large red arrow on the picture shows an area where something probably a reference number has been erased. Does anybody know what this was ?


55Zephyr
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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Hello Jacques and greetings to everybody,

seeing your last post about the bases on the 979/980/981 Horse box variations made me inspect my three models (one of each) and of course this revealed a surprise:

As you can see, the middle one of the three models (the top model is the U.S. 980 "Express Horse Van" version) - is the U.K. no.981 "B.R." version, and has a baseplate identical to the 979 Newmarket model which was only introduced in October 1961:
- it has the condensed 'Horsebox' lettering without the hyphen, no mould ejector marks, and the small elongated raised cast panel in front of the back axle.

What is more surprising is that the box is from 1955 (inspection stamp inside the lid is 'B 10 5' so I presume October 1955), the lid is marked "Dinky Toys" rather than the later "Dinky Supertoys", it has an 'LF' label on one lid end, but a handwritten price 17/11 which was not correct for 1955 when the list price was 15/9, not increasing to 17/11 until January 1957. I have had this model for around thirty years, but I suppose the model and box could have been switched before I acquired it.

Anyway, the main point is that rather than the baseplate being reworked for the 979 version, it would seem that this was done before the 980/981 version was deleted in 1960 - so it may be unlikely to find a grey 'Newmarket' version with the earlier baseplate marking?

Over to you, Jacques! (I can email you a separate pic of the maroon type 2 baseplate if you wish).

Regards, Adrian.


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Adrian,

Thank you for this piece of information. I did not know when the later base plate was introduced, now we know at least on which model.

Yes, I would apreciate a large photo of the second type maroon base plate by email.

Thanks and regards.

Jacques.


Fred7A
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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Well there's a surprise Adrian, I would not have expected to see the later base on a British Railways version! I have a Newmarket one with the early baseplate with hyphen and ejector marks.


starni999
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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Hi all,
Not the best photo, but here is the first type baseplate on a Newmarket...

Chris Warr.


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

I checked this example of mine, in the same 'Dinky Toys 981' box as Adrian's, and it has the early base plate (not the later one with condensed name and without hyphen).

Kind regards, Jan


55Zephyr
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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Hello all,

thank you Chris, Fred and Jan for the extra information which you have provided. Up until now we have presumed that the baseplate on the 979 Newmarket version was a later production - but in light of what we now see, I am beginning to think that there were two dies for the baseplate which were used alternately over the course of production. We know from well-documented information about the fate of the 999 Vulcan, that the extra temperature required to cast in alumminium caused premature wear on those dies - so would it not be likely that something similar happened with the Horse-box? If so, it would make sense to have two dies so that repairs could be made to one when time allowed, and to alternate the dies each time a casting run was scheduled. It also makes me wonder how the Horse-box managed to remain in production for so long (ten years) when it was also cast in aluminium?

When you look at the pics of the two bases, it seems more likely that a new die was made with slightly different lettering - and although this is pure conjecture, if the very first production run was for, say, 5000 bases, then this could easily have caused damage to the die (it is stated that the Vulcan only ran to 500 models produced before the die was rendered unusable) and a new die was produced to alternate with the first.

If this happened, then the first die would probably have been the one as mentioned by Jan and Fred, and shown in Chris' 979 picture and my 980 U.S. model, with larger and hyphenated lettering for the name 'Horse-Box' - and the second die was made quite soon afterwards.

Whatever the truth was, we now have evidence of both the 981 maroon 'B.R.' model and the 979 Newmarket version with both bases, except that we haven't yet seen a 980 U.S. model with the second base - but I am sure that some do exist!

Just another thought - could something similar have happened with the base of the trailer on the 582/982 Pullmore - there are two different bases, one of which has smaller condensed lettering and the addition of a number '2' cast in? I will see if I can add some pics to the Pullmore thread when time permits.

Regards to everybody, Adrian.


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Adrian et al-
I looked at my U.S. version of the Horse Box today, and it also has what you are referring to as the earlier baseplate. The date code inside the box lid shows 1956, and the box is still labled as "Dinky Toys". It will be interesting to see if a U.S. version turns up with the later baseplate. Based upon your assumption, which seems quite plausible, then some should have been made.
Your thoughts about the die wear and erosion with the aluminum castings are interesting, as all of us have heard about the Vulcan. But both the Pullmore trailer and the Horse Box were in production for a very long time, making one wonder if even two dies would have worked. My guess is, that for whatver reason, the damage was somehow less for these two models, or Meccano would not have put up with it......as 500 models of the Vulcan are miniscule in terms of production. Maybe the "boxy" shape" had something to do with it.
Regards,
Terry


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Terry

Can you please advise the full details of the inspection stamp on the inside of the lid of your US version. If you have time, a photograph would be great. It would be interesting to see if something similar to what Adrian has stated shows with the inspection stamp, thus reinforcing Adrian's logical theory.

Bruce


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Looking at the use of aluminium, it seems to give the best results for relatively large, smooth surfaces, well-accessible for the molten metal from various sides and without 'dead-end corners'. The latter goes for any metal, but apparently the more for aluminium. Not just the model's shape, but also the contruction and complexity of the die to accomplish the desired result is of high importance (and of course the heat-resistance: the temperature needed was about 800 degrees F instead of the regular 400 degrees F). The aluminium component parts for the Pullmore Car Transporter and the Horse Box have not been produced by Meccano but by the Birmingham Aluminium Casting Company at Smethwick.

By the way, my US Horse Box also has the early base casting, no box for possible dating, however. Kind regards, Jan


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Bruce
We just got home and it is late, but I can take some photos first thing in the morning and post here.
Regards,
Terry


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Bruce--
Here are some photos of my U.S. version of the Horse Box, #980. I bought this new from H. Hudson Dobson around 1959, so even though it was made in June, 1956, it sat for awhile in stock apparently.
Regards,
Terry

This appears to be the normal "early" baseplate

This box does not have the usual applied sticker proclaiming H. Hudson Dobson....as it was only imported, the box appears to be made only for the U.S. market, with H. Hudson Dobson printed on the other side.

This shows the date code on the underside of the box lid....June 1956


55Zephyr
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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Hello everybody,

Jan & Terry - thanks for your additional information. Yes Jan, your comments about the casting of aluminium are most informative - and since the components of these models were produced by B.A.C.C. who were specialists in this material, you would expect them to have the expertise to know if a die would have a sufficiently long life for the likes of a Dinky model.

I forgot to mention that the box inspection stamp on my 980 model is 'N D 1057' so October 1957 - but more importantly that there is a fault with the model and the rear drop-down door will not remain in the closed position. On close inspection the problem is with the body casting - at the top of each side of the door frame there is a small projection over which the lugs of the door/ramp are supposed to rest - but on my model these projections are almost non-existent. It is clear that this is a casting fault as the stumpy remains of these projections still have their original paint covering, and the lugs on the door are perfect, so it seems that the die must have suffered some filling-in, and that the intended cast projections were not properly formed.

So now the only thing preventing my horses from escaping is an unsightly cardboard wedge fitted at the top of the door (perhaps this van was sold to Michael Caine who used it experimentally for the Italian Job but rejected it because of the unlatchable back door?) Anyway, whoever did the final inspection must have missed this or not considered it to be a 'fail'.

One further thought - Jan's model could be a very early production 580 example (blue box with orange/white label or early striped box) as it has maroon wheel hubs and grey ribbed Supertoy tyres, which I think were changed to red wheel hubs and black block-tread tyres some time in late 1955.

Regards to all, Adrian.


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Chris,

I would apreciate a better picture of what we have called the first or early type base plate for the Newmarket van, the one with the ejector marks.

No hurry, thanks.

Jacques.


starni999
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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Hi Jacques,
Try my best! Hold on until after 1st Jan when I've got a 980 coming that I've been trying to buy for years, it's a strange one.
Chris Warr.


starni999
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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Hi all,

Finally picked up my 980 today, I've known about this one for years, and finally made it mine today.

Everything is in good order including the first type base, but what is going on with those wheels?
They are red plastic, and are interference fitted onto none domed straight axles. There is a tiny raised blob on the inside of each hub too.

Chris Warr.


55Zephyr
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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Greetings everybody, and a Happy New Year,

Chris - here is the answer to your question about the red plastic hubs: they are from very late production of post-war Tri-ang 'Minic' tinplate models as below:

Many of the 1955 to 1957 last batches of Minic models were fitted with these hubs instead of the two-piece tinplate hubs which were first used in 1936 on pre-war Minic models and to about 1952, or the later post-war cast alloy hubs which were common from around 1950 to about 1955.

On the inside of the hub there was usually a small 'pip' from the injection mould, about halfway betwen the axle hole and rim edge:

These hubs were commonly moulded in red, although much less frequently in mid-green and also black, as shown on the 4-ton Tipper in this picture. You will also notice that the articulated 'Mechanical Horse and Brewery Trailer' has plastic hubs on the prime mover, but cast alloy hubs on the trailer; it was not unusual for this to happen in Tri-ang Minic-land:

As you say, the hubs were press-fitted onto the plain axles, as were the tinplate and cast hubs - a much simpler process than spinning axle-ends over Dinky-style. You should also find that the axle is slightly smaller in diameter than the Dinky Supertoy one, and that therefore your axles have some 'play' in the axle-holes.

The question remains: why would anybody go to the trouble of removing the original Dinky axles and hubs? Anyway, I hope this answers your question!

Regards, Adrian.


starni999
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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Hi Adrian,

Thank you for the posting! You're absolutely right Minic they are, I only have a couple of Minics and they all have the old style metal hubs so I had no idea that is what is fitted to the 980.
I of course have no idea how it came to be, but it has been like that for many years as the friend I got it from had it from the 70's, and the chap he got it off had had it for years too.
I wondered if it was "liberated" from the factory before the wheels were fitted and then had a spare set fitted at home to make a suitable toy? Was axle and hub fitted carried out after the model was painted up and rivited together?

Chris Warr.


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

In addition to the baseplate differences, there are also variations in the body castings. In earlier models, the underside of the roof is plain (apart from ejector marks), whereas later models have four substantial ribs running across the width - one in the cab, one in the forward compartment, and two in the rear compartment. At the same time, the front mudguards (fenders) got slightly deeper, and the front panel gained some thickness.
Kevin.


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

I suppose that only the maroon ones exist without these ridges.

Could one post similar pictures of the models without these ridges ?

There is also a casting variation above the rear door.


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

My three maroon ones are without the ridges.

The 581 US version and a 581 BR version with maroon hubs, another one 981 with red hubs, but in 'Dinky Toys' box.
So all are pre-1956 anyway.
Kind regards, Jan


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

Is the Newmarket Horse Box unusual with plastic hubs ? I recently bought one so fitted, but all the pictures I've found online so far show metal hubs.

The baseplate is the later version.

Fred7A


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Re : -979 Maudslay Racehorse Transport Vehicle (1961-64) "Newmarket".

The Newmarket Horse Box with plastic hubs I have never seen before. I have only seen this model with light yellow metal and with dark yellow metal hubs. I would love to see a picture of your Horse Box. There are more models with plastic hubs that are hardly ever seen like the Guy Warrior Snowplough, the Mighty Antar with Propellor and the 984/985 Car Carrier and Trailer.

Kind regards,

Rob