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buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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DTCA MemberUK

Meccano Factory Drawings

Meccano at Binns Road in Liverpool produced thousands of factory drawings for Dinky Toys, Hornby, Hornby Dublo and presumably Meccano. Below is shown an example which is for the 157 Jaguar XK120:

I have never seen any drawings from the French factory at Bobigny offered for sale or auction.

Presumably there are drawings out there, has anyone got a French drawing?

Dave

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

Hi Dave.

Unfortunately, I have none.

Richard

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Dave and Richard, here is an example of no. 32E Fourgon Incendie Premier Secours Berliet, the French Fire Engine:

Kind regards, Jan

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Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

Fabulous Jan !
This "Premier Secours Berliet" is one of my favorite Dinky !
I am curious : how did you get this drawing ? Is it an original ?
Congratulations
Richard

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janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Dear Richard, I do not own this drawing myself, but I am always gathering whatever picture I find of Dinky design drawings for my own research. This one I got from your encyclopaedic fellow countryman.

Kind regards, Jan

jackh
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DTCA MemberIsrael

Jan, the ladder on your pristine "Berliet 1er secours" is not properly fit on the top of the truck. You might loose it at the first high speed turn...(LOL). It should be turned 180 degrees length wise and be enclicked in the second opening...You are usually so "perfect", that I cannot let this one go...(Re-LOL)...
Most friendly,
Jacques H.

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janwerner
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Hi Jacques, thanks for the advice. In fact, this photo is some years old already. So, after some troublesome fire fighting actions the Dinky firemen found out that the ladder was fitted the wrong way, and they turned it 180 degrees some time ago, to their great satisfaction!
Regards, Jan

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

A drawing of the French no. 23j Ferrari:

Regards, Jan

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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DTCA MemberUK

I have just acquired a Dinky factory drawing and it throws up something which I think is a new bit of Dinky info.

The drawing is of the baseplate for the Austin A40 Devon Van (Shell/BP etc) and was originally drawn on 15th October 1952 when the old numbering system was in place.

On the 17th of June 1953 the old sales number of 32a was renumbered to 470.

No 470 Shell/BP introduced in May 1954.

On 8th November 1954 the sales number of 470 was deleted from the plate, to accomodate the next two introductions.

No 471 Nestles introduced in October 1955.

No 472 Raleigh introduced in April 1957.

I have never seen reference to a sales number 32a in any Dinky literature, or any other website before.

I firmly believe this is a new bit of information.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi David, very nice! Reading this I thought I knew. And indeed, on page 248 of DT&MM you will read that among the models with letter suffix numbers which were not issued until after re-numbering there is the Austin Van Shell (470), which had the pre-production catalogue number 32a. In my own collection catalogue I have made a note that it is included in the USA catalogue of 1954 under no. 32a and named Austin 'Service Van'.
Congratulations with this very interesting acquistion!

Kind regards, Jan

starni999
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DTCA MemberUK

Hi Gents,
Makes sense too as the Trojans were No 31x etc.

Is it just me, or does anyone else prefer the old numbering scheme? I know it was hugely overloaded, and No's like 28 and 25 for example had run / were running out of new codes, but I just really like the idea of a series, oh, No 23? A racing car then.

Just to be bloody minded I'm going to refer to the Austins as 32a 32b 32c now. :laugh:

Chris Warr.

PS: Oh and what of the Omnisport? Forget it they didn't make one. :P

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buzzer999
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DTCA MemberUK

I never saw the Omnisport van in the flesh so I cannot be totally sure of it's authenticity.

I do come down on the side of an impressive paint job rather than coming out of Binns Road.

Dave

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janwerner
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I'm so sorry Chris, however illogical that may be: 32c was meant to be the catalogue number for the Bedford Van 'Kodak'! :)
So it was given away already and was not available to another Austin Van. We know that it didn't come that far in the end. 'Kodak' became no. 480, and the subsequent Austin Vans got the numbers 471 and 472.
Kind regards, Jan

starni999
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DTCA MemberUK

Hi Jan,
That IS strange, even by Dinky standards, still the Bedford couldn't be 33 could it? It would have to be a Mechanical Horse then! Maybe they were right to re-number after all.
Chris Warr.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Unfortunately arguing makes no sense: Meccano-Dinky standards have always been inscrutable ... :(
Regards, Jan

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Greetings all

As a result of a recent post, I am copying the drawings I have posted on various threads into this single thread "Meccano Factory Drawings" and where needed, slightly enlarging them for better viewing. (It is just as well a search through previous threads revealed the existence of this one, otherwise a new and duplicate thread would have resulted!)

The first drawing is "3-TON ARMY WAGON - COMPLETE" Drawing Number 13940.

Other drawings submitted by me on other threads will follow in time, thus bringing all these scattered drawings into a single thread.

Kind regards

Bruce

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janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Bruce, thank you very much. Posting factory drawings in this thread is very much appreciated of course but has serious size restrictions. If you have higher res material the factory drawings section in the documents archive (accessable for members only) is much more useful to upload. That is really the place where the DTCA fulfills the duty of preserving the scattered Meccano factory drawings. 91 drawings have been stored there at this moment, on the highest feasable resolution.
Kind regards, Jan

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Jan
No doubt you have not as yet read my post in the 621 3-ton Army Wagon thread. This explains my current actions, so I am copying it here:
Kind regards
Bruce

Dear Jacques and Jan
Up-loading full size factory drawings to the Member's Menu has caused me considerable concern. Unlike those that have already been up-loaded in the Factory Drawings section of the Member's Menu, I have had to pay a considerable sum of money to acquire these drawings which no doubt is applicable to other members who have purchased similar items. The DTCA was indeed very fortunate that Mike Richardson provided the Association with access to these to be up-loaded into the DTCA website prior to them being sold through auction such as Sotherby's. One should also bear in mind that these were freely gathered from the factory at the time of its closure that in effect saved them from destruction for which we as collectors owe Mike a deep sense of gratitude, and good on him for having ultimately made a considerable amount of money as a result of their ultimate sale.
However, at some point in the future I will be selling my collection, if anything to hopefully fully, if not partially offset what they cost me. Having them available online would in effect make these worthless as most are factory die-line prints and not the original drawings, although I do have several of the latter which may still retain their value.
I do not like making it appear that I am cash-starved - simply stating a fact. This conservative approach has not deterred me from sharing these drawings on this website, although at a size which would preclude any copying. To be seen in the Forum and not in the Member's Only may in fact result in a visitor to this site becoming a member.
Then of course adding them freely to any product that is sold without some form of recompense, would be quite unfair.
I am open to any comments or suggestions.

Bruce

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janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Dear Bruce, sorry, no, I did not read that. I appreciate very much that you nevertheless publish them in a fairly readable size. Apparently we have different views. Perhaps I'm a bit too idealistic. I too paid for my documents, not in order to simply own them (what's the fun of keeping them in a drawer?), but primarily to save them for present and future research. I regretted very much that this material was 'commercialized' by auctioning them. Fundamental sources for research should not cost money, but should be publicly accessable, that's why I will never sell my unique archival Meccano materials, but donate them (posthumously) to a publicly accessible institution. Until that moment I make them as public as I can, for the sake of the study of Dinky history. The full size (digital) documents unveil much more valuable, virtually invisible information than 'just' a readable picture (as we can see with so much surprise and admiration in the documents archive).
Never mind, that's just my view.
Kind regards, Jan

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce and Jan,

I fully agree with Jan's view on the availability of the original drawings for research.

Bruce's drawings history is quite different. As far as I know the drawings and many other artifacts were collected from the factory by Mike. Some were offered to the DTCA and some sold to Jean Michel Roulet who also he has a huge pension as a civil servant always try to make a buck of every thing and he had his bunch of drawings auctionned at Collectoys without retaining a copy. The result is that now these drawings are scatered all over the world and most of them lost for ever fo any examination and research.

There is a guy who was making Dinky like models under the name of Imit'Toys. They were not counterfeits as many other people do but his chalet in Andora burnt with all his Dinlky Collection models and documentation. All his elastomere dies burnt as well. What would happen if this happened to you ? Your precious drawings would be lost for ever.

I understand your point about the commercial value of your drawings but the only way to save these precious documents is to duplicate them and make them accessible in a fully readable form to most of the collectors. The Dinky Toys encyclopaedia is one way of doing this, the scans can also be stored at the Liverpool Museum, there must be other ways as well.

Although it would be interesting to see the drawings here, this web site is not a permanent way to keep then. See what happened to the huge work that we did on TMT.

Jacques.

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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DTCA MemberUK

I have to agree with Bruce here.

Firstly I do not see my collection in terms of 'this is worth this much' or 'that is worth that much' but THERE IS a value on my collection. After all I have made a considerable monetary investment in putting it all together over the last 20 years or so and it is unfair for my descendants to see it all just disappear after I have gone.

When the DTCA website was first put together Jan, Peter Golden and I uploaded a significant amount of factory drawings for the benefit of members and future interested parties, this is what was agreed to at the time.

In my case I uploaded all the drawings in my possession at that time. Over the subsequent months I realized that other senior DTCA members were not doing likewise so the drawings I have acquired over the last two or three years have not been uploaded as this process has not been done in a fair manner.

I will not be adding to this database as only a small handful of the membership has participated in what would have been a valuable process. Bruce is absolutely right in what he is doing and I concur totally with him.

If we agree to exchange information between ourselves that is a personal decision and outside the scope of this forum, I think that this is a good idea as items are then in more than one location and effectively protected for the future.

Dave

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Ah, this is a real discussion!
I respect everyone's view, as stated above. Perhaps a difference should be made between the value of the information and the value of the very physical document. As Bruce says already, the value of a dieline copy is less than the value of the orginal. What then is the value of merely an electronic file, which is not the document but only its information?
If value is a point, one may even consider the presence of one's drawing(s) on websites, in articles etc. as an 'advertisement' making the phisical document even more desirable than before it's image and information was unknown ...
Kind regards, Jan

By the way, I presume that there are many hobby's or interests that only cost money and nothing of monetary value is left: travel, sports, etc. Collectors are the only Lucky people who get their money back if they stop and sell(!). Still, I have no illusion at all about the value of our collections when we all die and the next generations have quite different interests and emotions.

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

David is absolutely right in stating that all of us here provide information to be added to this data base and that several members of the cometee do not although they have some very important documents. Dave, you should write this in the journal, they may read it. Here we all know this fact.

I fully suport Jan's idea about the value of the drawings, I think that in twenty years time they will be worthless.

There are some younger collectors collecting Dinky Toys, but they do not buy expansive items, they refurbish or collect played with.

If you consider your collection as an investment, you will have a great disapointment.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

No Jacques, I do not think that the Original drawings will become worthless, I believe many Dinky Toys (except the unique and very rarest) even in superb condition, will considerably devaluate, when all these 'childhood sentimental guys' die.
Especially original physical drawings will keep their value (if you like), because they remain unique and ... will not suffer in value from making them visible to everyone, on the contrary (although in fact this is not MY goal).
Kind regards, Jan

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

I am agree with you Jan ! I have two sons (and a girl) and no one are interested in Dinky Toys.
They pass in front of my cabinets without any look to the toys.
The question that is coming often is : what are we doing with all that when you will have left ?
Same thing for all their friends : absolutely no interest for my Dinky Toys.
In fact, I have to stop buying and start to sale ! euh !!....... it's not for to-morrow !
Richard

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

After my overhaul of the displays my Streamlined Tanker drawing had to make place for Dinky Toys. In the process of creating a new safe place for preservation I had the drawing lying on the table this morning with a very nice view against the light. I took my camera and took some shots, unveiling the multitude of corrections made in such a drawing. I cannot show them here in full detail, but I show them in order to underline the importance of the original drawings (and not just an image of them).

One more or less overall view and two more detailed ones, of which I deliberately increased the contrast.

A wealth of information, still to be discovered, trials, mistakes, corrections, adaptions - if only we had them all together, in hands, against the light.
Yes, there should be a good public research archive and study room for all of them ...

Kind regards,

Jan

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

To complete the John's loaded sack drawing, published in the October Journal, here are the sacks loaded on a Leyland Comet.

Cheers

Richard

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Dear Jan,

With reference to your post dated 01 21 2013 above, could you please post the page on which the Austin van is designated with 32a and named Austin 'Service Van'.

My 1954 USA catalog shows 470 Austin Van "Shell BP".

Thanks and regards.

Jacques.

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

About these factory drawings, I often read the word "dieline" which should probably be "die line". Any way, what does this mean, I can not find it in my technical dictionary or the Harrap's or any other on the net.

Thanks for helping an illeterate foreinger.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Jacques, I have cropped two sheets (9 + 10) of the Index to Dinky Toy Job Lists, memo 20112 of 13 August 1961, and show the relevant details below. Although this list was compiled ca. 7 years after the renumbering operation, it still refers to the old, obsolete reference numbers. The Trojan Oxo 31d/453 happens to be the only one lacking the old number, whereas this van was hardly ever referred to as 453, because it was discontinued immediately after the renumbering. For the Austin and Bedford vans, however, it is obvious that the first issues (Shell-BP and Kodak) the respective (old) numbers 32a and 32c were attributed to. The other, later liveries had only new numbers. Which one was meant to become 32b????

Unfortunately, I exceptionally and stupidly did not make a foot note to that remark about the 1954 US catalogue occurrence of 32a and the name 'Service Van'. I hope I will find the source for that remark for you. I cannot have made that up. Perhaps it was not a regular catalogue, or a different issue, or possibly a general Meccano catalogue or a list for retailers only? I have no US 1954 Dinky Toys catalogue myself, so I cannot check.

In my opinion dieline copies - often referred to as such in the Christie's catalogues of several auctions in the 1990s - are the blueprint-like copies that were distributed within the factory, among the various departments (see distribution list below). These contrary to the originals, drawn in Indian ink on especially prepared drawing fabric (of which by nature only one of each exists). Kind regards, Jan 

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Jacques (and Jan)

When I was working in Papua New Guinea, at one time I was the Land and Building Officer for the Department of Agriculture.  I was required to liaise with the Department of Lands in regard to land my department required.  A survey was carried out, from which a proper plan was prepared. A copy of this plan was then sent to us.  This copy was referred to as a dieline copy, similar only larger than a photocopy. During those days, the only "photocopier" we had was an infrared copier, whose copies tended to fade especially if exposed to sunlight. We then progressed to a sort of white paper copier and then eventually to the fore-runner of today's copy machines. The dieline machine was large, almost huge in size as it had to copy large survey sheets.

The plan copy, similar to tracing paper was inserted and then a copy was made of the drawing/plan.

Anyway, that is a dieline copy machine from which dieline prints originated - which is what Meccano would have used.

If need be I can contact some of my friends who were draughtsmen in the Department of Lands and they will be able to provide a far better explanation.

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

24 February 2016

#798

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