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janwerner's picture
janwerner
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Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 00:56
-660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Hi all, there are some references (Force, Ramsay 's) to an early version of the Antar Tank Transporter without driver. I have never seen one and I wonder how this is possible when taking into account that the bracket supporting this driver was designed in May 1954, two years before introduction of this model already. Also, since 1954/55 every suitable military model got its driver, why not this one?
Could the incidental spotting of such a driverless model regard just one or some flaws?
If you have concrete evidence of such a driverless model (preferably a photo) I would be anxious to know!!

Kind regards, Jan Werner


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Hi Jan

I have never seen a Mighty Antar without a driver, sadly Ramsay's is full of inaccuracies - especially in the trade box area which is a speciality of mine. I have sent them additions for this area on more than one occasion and had no reply or additions to what has been published for many years. It is sadly very out of date.
I would not take what is published in Ramsey's as a factual representation of the real Dinky world.

Dave


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Thanks very much Dave, what could I else but expect this confirmation of yours?
Uncritical writers copying each other's unconfirmed 'facts'!
Kind regards, Jan


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Referring back to the discussions on the 660 Tank Transporter and which insignia it should carry I have the answer.

I have spoken to DTCA member Major Bev Stevens who served for seven years with the Royal Tank Corps and has first hand experience of the Mighty Antar.

There were three variants of the Antar:

The first was the Mark I which was a trial vehicle and only about six were produced and these were probably operated by the Royal Armoured Corps. This was the vehicle Dinky based their vehicle on so the Red/Yellow insignia of the early versions is correct.

The Mark II is also the Dinky vehicle but this was the production vehicle and was operated by the Royal Army Service Corps. This means that Dinky were correct to change it to the Blue/Yellow insignia. The Mark III has a different body and was not modelled by Dinky.

Dinky never made any announcement of this change but I assume it will be on the Assembly Drawing for the 660 Mighty Antar. This drawing is not listed in The Great Book of Dinky Toys so it is possible it does not exist any longer.

It looks as if we have unwittingly discovered another enigma from Binns Road.

Dave

Hi David,

This is very interesting. So the Tanks Corp badge should be found on the models with the trailer marked Dinky Toys and possibly onthe early Supertoys.

To confirm this, we should make a list of all the tank transporters available with all the possible variations :

• Marking of the trailer
- Dinky Toys Tank transporter 660
- Dinky Supertoys Tank transporter 660
- Dinky Supertoys transporter no ref. number
• Badge
- red / yellow
- blue / yellow
• Detachable trailer yes / no
• Radiator with or without "lever" or what ever it is.
• Driver yes / no
• Windows yes / no
• with transformer supports for 908 yes / no

By the way, what are these "supports" called in English ?

About the Antar without driver, my information is that it was deleted on the very last items made, the ones with windows but I do not have a picture of that variation.


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

janwerner wrote:
"Hi all, there are some references (Force, Ramsay's) to an early version of the Antar Tank Transporter without driver. I have never seen one and I wonder how this is possible when taking into account that the bracket supporting this driver was designed in May 1954, two years before introduction of this model already. Also, since 1954/55 every suitable military model got its driver, why not this one?
Could the incidental spotting of such a driverless model regard just one or some flaws?
If you have concrete evidence of such a driverless model (preferably a photo) I would be anxious to know!!

Kind regards, Jan Werner"

Jan

I realize that this post is a little outdated when the discussion on the Antar first took place several years ago, but the early, or first issue 660 Tank Transporter with the trailer marked "Dinky Toys" did have a driver incorporated. I have had over the years, three other similar models, and they all had a driver.

As for Ramsay's catalogue, the latest issue I have, Edition 14, incorporates all my revisions I had sent to John, deleting any mention of the driverless models. I hope my revision is acceptable! I did not mention the insignia's but it is nice to see Dave's final post on the subject from advice given to him by Major Stevens.

Bruce


55Zephyr
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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Hello everybody,

having recently read this thread and noticed the reference to the early production models being marked on the underside of the trailer with just 'Dinky Toys' rather than the later 'Dinky Supertoys', I checked my models to discover that I did not have one of these variations, so set about finding one, which surprisingly turned up quite soon, and in very good condition although in a somewhat worn box.

Seeing the reference in Ramsays which states that the first casting was only issued in May 1956, I was surprised to find that the inspection stamp in the lid is 'H M 856' (August 1956). I then checked my other yellow-lidded boxed model ('Supertoys' casting) to find that the inspection stamp is '756' (no other characters evident) so July 1956. However, there are two versions of the yellow-lidded boxes: the text on the right-hand side on version (A) is in red within a red-outline, whereas on version the text is in yellow letters printed on a red label which has been pasted-on over the original text.

So this is version (A) with the model marked 'Dinky Toys' and box dated August 1956 :

and this is version with a 'Dinky Supertoys' model and the lid dated July 1956 :

Now, I have assumed (yes, I know) that the earliest box is version (A), and the later print is version - so, my question is this: could the first casting model still have been produced and/or packed in August 1956? It is even more mystifying when I know that my 'Supertoys' marked model is near mint-boxed but packed in July 1956 (and acquired around fifteen years ago from the first owner).

Another Dinky mystery!

And here's another one: why is it that in compiling this contribution, I get a 'smiley' when I enter text for a capital B?! (now edited out, thanks Jacques!)

Still, like the smiley, it makes life interesting, doesn't it?

Regards to all,

Adrian.


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Hi Adrian, very interesting to see that very first casting 'Dinky Toys'.
My early box (your 'A'), however, contains the second state of the die 'Dinky Supertoys', as does (of course) my later blue striped box of November 1956.
Then, there was also the difference of transfers used in 1956, making a confusing mix of boxes, castings and finishes within a few months only.
Perhaps this confusion and mix is not a surprise, because production numbers of this successful model in 1956 must have been huge, so some overlap of boxes, castings and finishes was almost inevitable, I presume. Some pictures, also including a quote from the General Business Report of the Meccano board of 1956. They really boasted explicitly the new Mighty Antar Tank Transporter.

Kind regards, Jan


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Adrian,

If you type B like this you do not get a smiley.

Some forums have a "Disable smileys" command but this one does not.

Jacques.


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

55Zephyr wrote:
"Hello everybody,

having recently read this thread and noticed the reference to the early production models being marked on the underside of the trailer with just 'Dinky Toys' rather than the later 'Dinky Supertoys', I checked my models to discover that I did not have one of these variations, so set about finding one, which surprisingly turned up quite soon, and in very good condition although in a somewhat worn box.

Seeing the reference in Ramsays which states that the first casting was only issued in May 1956, I was surprised to find that the inspection stamp in the lid is 'H M 856' (August 1956). I then checked my other yellow-lidded boxed model ('Supertoys' casting) to find that the inspection stamp is '756' (no other characters evident) so July 1956. However, there are two versions of the yellow-lidded boxes: the text on the right-hand side on version (A) is in red within a red-outline, whereas on version (B) the text is in yellow letters reversed out of a red block.

Now, I have assumed (yes, I know) that the earliest box is version (A), and the later print is version (B) - so, my question is this: could the first casting model still have been produced and/or packed in August 1956? It is even more mystifying when I know that my 'Supertoys' marked model is near mint-boxed but packed in July 1956 (and acquired around fifteen years ago from the first owner).

Another Dinky mystery!

And here's another one: why is it that in compiling this contribution, I get a 'smiley' when I enter text for a capital B?!

Still, like the smiley, it makes life interesting, doesn't it?

Regards to all, Adrian."

Hello Adrian

I am afraid it was me who worked closely with John Ramsay in 2005 to produce the list of 660 Tank Transports that appears in his catalogue from that year onwards! I had previously and right up to 2007, worried the life out of countless eBay sellers, traditional UK auction houses, and swap-meets here in Brisbane seeking the casting and inspection stamp data, that resulted in the final table of models. In all those years, I never came across a Tank Transporter with DINKY TOYS cast under the trailer with a date later than May 1956, so your box is intriguing. Any chance of you posting a picture of the inspection stamp? I know for a fact that a lot of inspectors, mostly ladies on the floor, mixed up the numerals when they made up their rubber stamps.

The yellow lidded DINKY TOYS box, overprinted DINKY SUPERTOYS was produced up to DECEMBER 1956, with the familiar blue-striped box being introduced as from NOVEMBER 1956. So for two months, both box styles were being used until the last of the yellow-lidded boxes had been despatched. There were no 660 Tank Transporters manufactured during September 1956, unless someone can produce a box that contradicts this! The greatest numbers were during May and June which is understandable.

There were occasions when Meccano had no stock of the Tank Transporter such as in June 1960 according to the agent's Order Form for that month.

I first became fascinated with the early Dinky Toys Tank Transporter through a dear Dutch friend. Jos van B. who brought this variation to my attention and naturally I had to have one! Over the years, I have owned 26 Tank Transporters, some unboxed but mostly boxed. These have been culled to just seven boxed examples now; the first two in yellow lidded boxes, the next without windows in a blue striped box, then an example with windows, and the last issue with windows and detachable trailer. (Yes I know that only totals six - the seventh is an additional last example.)

Finally, check out how some folk cataloguing the 660 are completely confused with the yellow-lidded boxes: Lot 2596 Vectis sale 12 July 2012. I wrote to Vectis prior to the auction advising them of the error, and this is the reply I received from the cataloguer in question: "This box type was issued after the blue & white striped lid box and this is the later issue model with detachable trailer which is more sought after hence the higher auction estimate."

Kind regards

Bruce


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Greetings all!

In my above Post I made the following comment:

"There were no 660 Tank Transporters manufactured during September 1956, unless someone can produce a box that contradicts this!"

Well - such a box has been found with the Quality Inspection stamp of ik 956 - September 1956.  So I stand corrected! The Tank Transporter was in continuous production from May 1956 to March 1957, then May and June 1957, then August through to October 1957 with further periodic production until March 1963. If a box can be found with an April 1957 Quality Inspection Stamp, this would mean the popularity of this model was immense thus making it one of the few models that was in continuous production for over one year, bearing in mind that most models were never in continuous production, but were produced when stock was low and demand was still present.

Regards

Bruce (150)

20 December 2015


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Gentlemen---
Thought I might as well throw my Mighty Antar Tank Transporter into the ring as well. I got this one for Christmas in 1956, so I might get the prize for longest possession. As you can see, it is the early yellow box, with the Supertoys stripe added. The view of the base clearly shows it is the second version, with the Supertoys name added. The box is date coded June, 1956, so am guessing this is part of the first batch with the Supertoys name added?
By the way, I can still remember the excitement I had to get this for Christmas...these were very expensive for the day, around $5.00. I have a color slide my dad took somewhere....I will have to find and post some day.

Regards,
Terry

 


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Wow, did you ever play with your Dinky Toys, Terry?
Look at mine, as old as yours, from December 1956:

The tyres are almost smooth, caused by many years of driving, hauling and fighting! And probably the third layer of new paint ...
Kind regards, Jan


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Jan
Yes, I did play with most of my Dinky's as a youngster, but carefully. For some strange reason, at a young age I learned to take care of things, and not damage them. My Antar definitely has some wear, and the spare tire has come loose, but it does still wear its original paint. I am probably more amazed that I managed to save most of the original boxes from 55 years ago!
But that is pretty neat that you and I both got our Antar transporters at the same time so long ago.
Regards,
Terry


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

With reference to the driver versus no driver in the 660 tank transporter. I have always considered that if the model was released with a driver, it always had one, except late issues of the 688 Field Artillery Tractor. Others had it added. Having said that, I have just realised that my recently purchased 660 'DINKY TOYS' base does not have a driver fitted nor does it have the bracket. Unfortunately I do not have a suitable camera to illustrate the point, so the attached will have to do !

Ron F.


55Zephyr
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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Hello everybody,

just some additional information about my two models in yellow-lidded boxes:

1 Both models ('Dinky Toys' and 'Dinky Supertoys' castings) are fitted with drivers, and both carry the red & yellow Royal Armoured Corps insignia.

2 As requested by Bruce, here is a photo of the lid stamp of the 'Dinky Toys' model:

You are right Bruce, that quite often the inspection stamp lettering became mixed up, double-stamped, only partly visible etc. but in this case it is very clear for August 1956 - well done Mrs. H M!

3 Also a photo of the 'Supertoys' lid stamp dating to July 1956:

but in this case, although quite legible, the '7' is fainter, and although I'm not sure, it doesn't seem that there was a letter after the numbers where the ink marks are.

4 I have just realised that on the lid with the text in a red panel , this is not printed directly onto the lid cover paper, but is a sticker which has been adhered over the original text - so confirming that it is a modification to the original lid print.

As for cataloguers, well - we have all met people who think they know best despite evidence to the contrary, pity one of them works for Vectis!

Regretfully I never received any military Dinky models as presents, so never had the fun of 'playing soldiers' - but still enjoy getting my Dinkies out of the cabinets or drawers for a bit of old-fashioned playtime. Like Terry, I was taught to look after my toys by my parents who supervised my playtime (all wheels firmly on the ground and no crashing, or the toys would be confiscated!) and each car was returned to it's box after each play session. As I grew up they learned to trust me, but the lessons had been well-learned!

Regards to all, Adrian.


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Having trouble uploading the picture of the driverless Antar. Trying again

To Bruce: The date stamp in both the boxes is 5/56 (below)

Ron.


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Here is the announcement in the Meccano Magazine for the 660 Antar from June 1956.

As can be seen from the text it stated that it had a driver fitted right from the initial launch.

The one that Ron shows above is the first one I have ever seen without a driver. My reaction is that this is a factory error and it had driven quietly passed quality control - not an easy thing for a vehicle with an 18 litre petrol engine!!!!!

Dave


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

I am not sure to understand well.

• Adrians's Dinky Toys was made in August 1956
• His Supertoys was made in July 1956

The very rare Dinky Toys was issued first. Did Adrian mix his boxes ? If not it would mean that there were two dies for the semi-trailer which I doubt very much.

I agree with David, the Driver less Antar, probably a Dinky Toys must be a mistake.

The driver + driver bracket were a sub assembly, so if there is no driver, there can not be a bracket.

There is an other mystery, why was the marque Supertoys not used from May 1951 until January 1955 ? Why the Antar issued in 1956 was a Dinky Toys and not a Supertoys. The 642 Pressure refueller die was also certainly made as a Dinky and changed to Supertoys before the first castings vere made or between the pilot lot and the production models ?


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

It was my understanding that the "Dinky Toys" Antar was only made in May 1956 and that they very quickly were changed to "Supertoys" in June or July.

Looking at the MM announcement it was always intended as a Supertoy. Why the Supertoys name disappeared and the reappeared is strange, the Dinky catalogues of the period also reflected this change.

Ron I have attempted a close-up to show the Antar driver mounting

The rivet retaining the bracket cannot be seen as it is under the details of the winch behind the driver's cab. I suspect your driverless Antar does not have a bracket.

I agree totally with Jacques that Dinky drivers were stored as sub-assemblies attached to their mounting brackets.

Here is one from a 688 Field Artillery Tractor I picked up from e-bay some years ago:

Dave


55Zephyr
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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Hello everybody,

Jacques - just to confirm some of the information from my earlier post: my Transporter marked 'Dinky Toys' in the yellow-lidded box with date stamp 'H M 856' was only bought two months ago from a UK seller, so it is possible that the box is not the one the model was originally packed in, although I checked with the seller and he told me he has had it for a couple of years and the model and box were together when he bought it.

However, the other model I pictured, marked 'Supertoys' in a yellow-lidded box with date stamp '7 56', I have owned for around twenty years, and I believe was unsold shop stock - it is complete with all three packing pieces, and everything is in perfect original condition.

I certainly have not mixed the boxes up! I have three other Transporters:

1 Base marked 'Supertoys', in a striped box, with 'Dinky Supertoys' in upright capitals, box date stamp 'Z E1256' so December 1956, complete with all packing pieces, 'LF' sticker on one lid end.

2 Base marked 'Supertoys', in 698 Gift Set box, 'Dinky Supertoys' in upright capitals, box date stamp 'Y P 859' so August 1959, with 651 Tank and all packing pieces.

3 Base marked 'Supertoys', with windows and detachable trailer, striped box with 'Dinky Supertoys' in italic capitals, with all packing pieces, but no price marked on the box, and no date stamp inside the lid, as is common with very late production 1963-4 models.

All these examples are fitted with drivers in the Antar cab, including the detachable-trailer model - I agree with Dave and Jacques that this model was always intended to have a driver and bracket fitted, and any that missed out were production errors.

There are several examples of yellow-lidded Transporters for sale on eBay at present, but only one is an early production 'Dinky Toys' version, fitted with a driver, and in a box date-stamped 'A R 556' (I have checked with the seller, to save you the trouble, Bruce!) but he wants £225 for it!

Hope this clarifies things for you Jacques.

Regards, Adrian.


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

The conclusion may be that around the middle of 1956 - in a few months' time - for this model changes took place in the casting (Dinky Toys >> Dinky Supertoys), box (yellow lid >> blue striped lid) and transfers (yellow-red >> yellow-blue). In such a transitional period I think it's no wonder that batches crossed in the factory and that seemingly illogical or chronological unexpected combinations of these features occurred easily. Always hard to prove!
Kind regards, Jan


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

55Zephyr wrote:
"Hello everybody,

Jacques - just to confirm some of the information from my earlier post: my Transporter marked 'Dinky Toys' in the yellow-lidded box with date stamp 'H M 856' was only bought two months ago from a UK seller, so it is possible that the box is not the one the model was originally packed in, although I checked with the seller and he told me he has had it for a couple of years and the model and box were together when he bought it.

However, the other model I pictured, marked 'Supertoys' in a yellow-lidded box with date stamp '7 56', I have owned for around twenty years, and I believe was unsold shop stock - it is complete with all three packing pieces, and everything is in perfect original condition.

I certainly have not mixed the boxes up! I have three other Transporters:

1 Base marked 'Supertoys', in a striped box, with 'Dinky Supertoys' in upright capitals, box date stamp 'Z E1256' so December 1956, complete with all packing pieces, 'LF' sticker on one lid end.

2 Base marked 'Supertoys', in 698 Gift Set box, 'Dinky Supertoys' in upright capitals, box date stamp 'Y P 859' so August 1959, with 651 Tank and all packing pieces.

3 Base marked 'Supertoys', with windows and detachable trailer, striped box with 'Dinky Supertoys' in italic capitals, with all packing pieces, but no price marked on the box, and no date stamp inside the lid, as is common with very late production 1963-4 models.

All these examples are fitted with drivers in the Antar cab, including the detachable-trailer model - I agree with Dave and Jacques that this model was always intended to have a driver and bracket fitted, and any that missed out were production errors.

There are several examples of yellow-lidded Transporters for sale on eBay at present, but only one is an early production 'Dinky Toys' version, fitted with a driver, and in a box date-stamped 'A R 556' (I have checked with the seller, to save you the trouble, Bruce!) but he wants £225 for it!

Hope this clarifies things for you Jacques.

Regards, Adrian."

Hello Adrian

Over the past 15 years, my data base on factory stamps and models has provided me with much useful information when changes occurred. (More are still needed before the exercise can be conclusive to all models though.) With the 660, I have listed eight with August 1956 (several duplicates) and all have DINKY SUPERTOYS on the base of the trailer. The stamps have been DH856, DH 856 (note the space between the letters and numerals), ER 856, JB 856, jb 8 56, (small case and spaces), MD 856, JR 856 and PY 8 56 (a reversal of the letters with yours).

As for your DINKY TOYS casting in the August 1956 box, for what it is worth, I think somewhere at some time, the first owner who may have been given two models, or a subsequent collector prior to the collector from whom you purchased it, has mixed his models when returning them to their boxes. Very easy to do, as I can speak from experience. The only thing that corrected matters in my case were the photographs I take each time I receive a model. Without this evidence it would have been a case of "remembering"!! (Especially as most collectors are not as fussy as some of us!! :laugh: :laugh: )

The only other possible scenario, and an extremely unlikely one at that, is a number of models manufactured in the early days had been sitting in the storage room waiting their boxes, then forgotten about momentarily and when found in August, they were then boxed. Nobody would have been perturbed with the DINKY TOYS casting on the base of the trailer.

Somehow, I think the first explanation I have given is more plausible. If any more are "found" from now on, would be a case of purposely switching boxes.

Take care, and kind regards

Bruce


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Terry,

It is interesting to see the difference in colour between the tank transporter and the Centurion Tank.

Regards,

Chris.


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Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Chris--You are so right, and that seems to happen sometimes with the military models.  What is interesting about those two, is that I received both of them about the same time....Christmas 1956, but as Jacques has mentioned, there were still differences in color batches of paint.

     Best regards,  Terry


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Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 16:49

Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Bruce

 

Your theory about forgeting some models in the store room is not quite right.

When launching the production of any model, the quantity of castings necessary for a batch is slightly increased in case of rejected and recycled catings. In the case of a model with several castings which is the case of the tank transporter and many other models the number of each finished parts is different and the surplus is stocked in the store room until a new batch is made which can be several months or even a year. They are not forgoten and will be used for the next run. This can result in different shades between the two parts and mix of castings of different variations like Dinky Toys and Dinky Supertoys, Supertoys in Dinky Toys boxes etc...

Question : When was the window glazing added ?


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dinkycollect
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Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 16:49

Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

A good example of transitional model is this Tipper with a Terex front grill and the chassis is engraved with Euclid.

Photo by courtesy of Bruce Hoy.


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Joined: Mon, 07/06/2015 - 22:38

Re : -660 Thornycroft mighty Antar Tank Transporter (1956-64)

Jacques

I refer you to your Post #25, which I presume is in reply to my Post #22.

I think if you carefully read what I wrote, you seem to have concentrated on one of my theories that happened to have been my second a "less likely scenario".  This is what I wrote:

As for your DINKY TOYS casting in the August 1956 box, for what it is worth, I think somewhere at some time, the first owner who may have been given two models, or a subsequent collector prior to the collector from whom you purchased it, has mixed his models when returning them to their boxes. Very easy to do, as I can speak from experience. The only thing that corrected matters in my case were the photographs I take each time I receive a model. Without this evidence it would have been a case of "remembering"!! (Especially as most collectors are not as fussy as some of us!! :laugh: :laugh: )

The only other possible scenario, and an extremely unlikely one at that, is a number of models manufactured in the early days had been sitting in the storage room waiting their boxes, then forgotten about momentarily and when found in August, they were then boxed. Nobody would have been perturbed with the DINKY TOYS casting on the base of the trailer.

I have emphasised the wording of the second scenario IN BOLD which I considered extremely unlikely, so in effect, you are agreeing with what I have previously written.

Finally, I trust the image used was taken from the DTCA website and from no other source.

Window Glazing was added to the cab of the 660 Tank Transporter on 15 December 1959 as per Drawing No. 7833 with the earliest quality inspection stamp I have located being dated March 1961. Two models for which I have inspection details that came out of the factory in September and October 1960 did not have window glazing.

Bruce Hoy   (150)

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