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Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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Joined: Mon, 07/06/2015 - 22:38
-139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

A recent arrival from Somerset in the United Kingdom (see New Arrivals) has been this delightful 139a Ford Fordor Sedan in yellow with yellow hubs displaying very little playwear, just the odd tiny chip here and there.  The base plate is faultless and all four tyres are flexible and have not hardened. Also in the same parcel were four other early Dinky Toys that have been hardly played with, if at all, over the years.  The Ford does not look any different to the number of other 139a that have passed through our front door, all having the usual very minor chips, except this one is perhaps unique within the collecting world of Dinky Toys!

What is it that sets this model apart from all the rest?  It is the roof, and what I had first thought was some hairs caught up in a temporary paint repair – until I put on my glasses!  It still has, after all these years, its original price of 2/6, (two shillings and sixpence), written in pencil on the roof!  I wonder why the original owner did not rub the price out?  We all have seen countless pencil and ballpoint written prices on innumerable boxes, but this is the first time I have seen an original price still visible on the paintwork of a model.  Has anyone else encountered something similar?

The price of 2/6 was applicable from August to December 1949.From December 1949 to February 1950 I have not found a price list or catalogue covering this period, but from March 1950 to June 1950 the price was still 2/6 so one can assume that 2/6 was the price from August 1949 through to June 1950. The next price change I have is dated February 1952 when the price had increased to 3/1.

Usually on receiving a new model, I carefully wash it in warm, soapy water to remove any grime and accumulation of dust and fluff, and then air-dry it as quickly as possible but what should I do with this price?  I feel it should remain as an important part of this model’s history.

Finally, a similar, although in slightly better condition (without the price!) sold recently at auction for £340.00. My Ford on the other hand together with two others came in at £160.00 plus premium, or about £56.00 for each model. Quite a difference a few isolated tiny chips make.

Larger images of the price are below.

Bruce H

20170228/1056


Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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Joined: Thu, 07/30/2015 - 16:47

Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Hi Bruce

I find it personally always valuable when a price is placed on a box. You can reconstruct the period of sale with price lists or catalogi. Your model 139a changed after 2/6, in February / March 1951 in 2/8, see the back of the Meccano pricelist 16/251/33. By the way: did you receive my personal message about my questions in the 521 Bedford Artic topic?

Kind Regards,

Jan Oldenhuis (703)


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Hi Bruce, I would tend towards removing defacing and harmful grafitti like this, even though it may tell something about this example's history. In fact, this little trace only testifies that anything could happen to a Dinky Toy, even writing on it. Still, it may be important to record this fact, the original price, by keeping the photographs, a written record of this in your administration, or even - if you do not want this fact to be separated from the object  -  paste a little sticker below with this information -- just my opinion.

This made me think of an example of a manufacturer even firmly casting in the price of the model, like cut in stone! This must be a product of a very stable inflation-less economy. Indeed, the Soviet Union! The example below makes part of a tiny little soviet army models collection of mine, translated it is called 'War Technology' series, made in the USSR in the 1970s-1980s, Kind regards, Jan  

 


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Hello Jan O

Many thanks for taking the time to provide a response to my post. You are absolutely spot-on about prices and how these can provide a time frame when a model was made and sold.  Many thanks for posting your copy of the 16/251/33 Meccano price list which is one of many I do not have in my collection.

Together with the information you provided, we now know my 139a Ford Fordor Sedan was priced at 2/6 from August 1949 to at least October 1950. By February 1951 the price had increased to 2/8, and was never priced at 2/6 again. So my Ford is indeed of a very early manufacture, and we only know this with the price written on it that the thoughtful original owner did not remove! How considerate!

Now to Jan’s thoughtful response!  I do respect your comments and as collectors we all look at our hobby in a different light. It would be an uninteresting existence if we all collected the same and held the same ideals. I look at this price written on the Ford in the same way as a price written on a box – it forms part of its history and is irrefutable. My ownership of the model is temporary – I cannot keep it forever, as this car will outlive all of us! So in effect, I am simply its current custodian and I do not think it gives me the right to remove the price in the same way I have many boxes with pencilled prices on them and I certainly would not remove those! I have just bought from eBay UK a boxed model that carries on one end an Australian price. This is a worthy addition to my collection, simply due to the model having been originally sold in Australia.

Finally I see that Mike has included an excerpt of my original Post on my Ford in the latest copy of The Journal. I would be most interested to read if others write into the editor with their views! Perhaps the majority may convince me to change my views!

Kind regards

Bruce H.   (150)

20172005/1104/0357


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Jan Oldenhuis
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Joined: Thu, 07/30/2015 - 16:47

Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Bruce-I totally agree with your argument.

I have also read your article in the DTCA journal and would like to respond to this place. I would also appreciate it if there is an indication on the box or the like about price, date or something personal. It is or can be a valuable explanation of the history of the model. So I do not remove this either.

My DT 264 box comes directly from the USA and has a Gimbels price tag. I went searching on the internet and found out to be a big store in the USA (See picture). It's like the Bijenkorf in the Netherlands. (Picture of Amsterdam).

Gimbel Brothers (Gimbels) was an American department store corporation from 1887 until 1987. I am very happy with this science and has a certain added value for me. I know, at least, that he has been sold in the USA.

I also searched for the price 1.10, but the USA catalogues give a different price. Until 1963 1.85 and from 1964 1.69. See pictures. I can not explain that.

Greetings to all.

20-5-2017 Jan Oldenhuis


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

To complete this topic, I post here under two photos of my Ford Sedan.

On the second one, you will see the two different baseplates with big and small letters and the different lengths of the bottom front body parts  at each ends of the front axel .

Friendly yours

Richard


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Hello Richard

Nice collection of 139a/170 Ford Fordor Sedans.

Here are mine without including the boxes for those that are boxed.  Larger images are at the bottom of this Post.

As you can see, I still have to obtain the all-green version as well as the red and cream in lowline. Plus there is the all red as well as the tan, both with the extended front axle supports , so a total of four more models to really complete the set!

I am in the process of  writing a detailed Post on the 139a/170, as I have a lot more information to share.

Cheers

Bruce H.   (150)

20172405/1107/1831


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Hello Bruce.

Thanks for your nice words and for your interesting photos and comments on the still missing items !

Like that, I know what I am going to look for !enlightenedenlightenedsmiley

Cheers

Richard


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Greetings Richard

Nice to see you online again!  Actually I meant to mention in my last Post that the pink and blue lowline Ford is actually not pink, but a sort of beige. At first I thought it was a faded pink, but the colour underneath is the same.  One can readily see the difference in both colours with the picture below.

As mentioned above, the colour beige extends to the base area of the model:

This difference could be explained with the paint process; the previous colour used had not been completely, or correctly flushed before applying the true salmon pink colour. I have seen another Ford Fordor with the beige colour but neglected to save a copy of the photograph.  I have also encountered this previously that also involved a salmon pink model, as shown with the two images below of two 173 Nash Ramblers.

Actually, I quite like the first accidental colour scheme, as it does remove itself from being a somewhat feminine colour, and with these toys being aimed at boys, some of the choices Meccano made are unusual to say the least. Then when one looks at some of the members of the original Dinky Toys Club who won a competition, it is easy to appreciate that Meccano must have really did their homework thoroughly. There were at least two young girls who were included in the list of winners in the Club's first competition. Some of those whose names were limited to first and second initials may very well have also been female. The second competition again had at least two young girls as winner, with the last competition there were four young lady winners.

I am left with a dilemma whether I have to obtain a real salmon pink lowline colour scheme to finally complete the collection for the Ford Fordor or consider the beige example as salmon pink!!

Kind regards

Bruce H.   (150)

20172405/1107/2230


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

A humble contribution of mine, after the wealth of information supplied already by the posters above (and being the owner of merely one boxed no. 170 Ford Fordor Sedan  (+ one Army Staff Car, no. 139am / 170m/675)).

This thread made me realize that I did not have decent photos of my example yet, so I made some this afternoon. Producing the box too, I became aware of the information on one end flap, being a sticker marked:

D2

- WU . PC .

3/6

So this is food for you Bruce, I presume the price will unveil the year(s) of availability of this example, and perhaps for others to possibly recognize the supplier involved. 

Also a reminder of the article 'Dinky's American dream', by Nigel Mynheer, who '... looks at Dinky's glamorous 50's US cars'. In Model Collector of October 2001 (Vol. 15 no. 10) p. 31-35. This is an article inspired by and making use of the Remy-Meeus collection, then being auctioned, discussing the Ford Fordor, Plymouth Estate Car and the Hudson Commodore. Kind regards, Jan 

 


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Bruce---A most lovely collection of Ford's, with such a mix of colors. I have always preferred the solid colors, but by the time I bought mine new, in 1958, the two-tones were all that were available.
And Jan, I really like that tan color.....looks so nice on that model!
Best regards, Terry


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Hello Jan

Many thanks for your contribution. Your 170 in tan is quite superb - as well as its box.  The price though has me stumped, as I cannot find a UK or Australian price that matches it. Perhaps the model and box came from South Africa, or perhaps some other British Commonwealth country.The price in Australia for a 170 ranged from 4/6 up to 5/5, down to 3/- then up to 5/- until its demise. It could have come from Australia as the price in March 1956 was 3/-, so perhaps the retailer added an extra 6 pence to the cost for "administration purposes"! As far as I am aware, Meccano was unable to ensue Australian retailers followed an established price range for all its models, and I am certain the agent, E G Page and Son was unable to do so due to the size of the country. The initials on the price label mean nothing to me!

By the way Jan, does the inside of either major end-flap contain a rubber stamp?

My box has nothing inside it, and on the exterior it has a price of 85 something-or-other which could possibly be a US price of 85 cents.

With the long front axle supports, your 139am is one of the early issues, although it appears that these supports remained thus until the first issues of the 675. Apparently the change occurred at the same time as the change with the base plate.

Terry

Thank you too for your kind words. I actually preferred the all tan colour scheme too, although my Ford was all-red with maroon hubs. As I received mine prior to 1957 (came from my neighbour although I am uncertain what I swapped for it!) but this car does not follow the logical sequence of the extended front axle supports, as this one is the shortened version and with "Ford Sedan" cast into the interior of the roof. My tan version, see photo above, is a 170, has the extended front axle supports and lacks the wording "Ford Sedan" in the interior of the roof, all of which gets me more and more confused!

The all-yellow version has the extended front axle supports and nothing cast in the interior of the roof - see below. 

Now this is where it gets confusing, as I always assumed the above observations were those applicable to the very first issues of the 139a.

Then I turn my attention to my tan version, remembering that it came in a 170 box.  Firstly the base:

As one can see, it has the extended front axle supports, and,

the roof interior is blank, no "Ford Sedan" cast in, but it came in a 170 box!

Here is my red with maroon hubs, which has the shortened front axle supports,

as well as it has "Ford Sedan" cast into the interior roof

The above makes this model in the era prior to the gaudy two-tone colour schemes, although some reference works has the red with maroon wheel hubs as a 139a. So is it possible there are red with maroon wheel hubs "out there" that have a blank interior ceiling?

Who says collecting Dinky Toys is simple as it definietly looks as if my collection of Fords has to increase substantially!

Kind regards

Bruce H.   (150)

20172505/1108/2021


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janwerner
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Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 00:56

Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Thanks, Bruce, for your notes and comments. Nothing stamped inside the major end flaps, unfortunately! Model name cast inside roof of the tan sedan, not inside the Army Staff Car. Kind regards, Jan 


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Hi Bruce.

Same colour variations with the Cadillac Eldorado 131 as you can see on the photo bellow.

Did you notice that both the Rambler and the Cadillac in beige instead of pink salmon,  have spun hubs ?

For me, the explanation is : the paints manufacturer did not succeed to obtain the right Meccano pink colour and the colourist needed to add some colouring matter to fit with the previous delivery and that operation take time. Meccano needed urgently the paint to face the orders and accept the new lot with, probably a little discount.

Friendly yours

Richard

 


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Dinkinius
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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Richard

I quite agree with all that you have written with the different colour being applicable to later issues. Here are some pictures of the Cadillac, Rambler and Ford together in a differing set-out.

Placing the models together in their similar shades of "Salmon Pink" and one can readily see that the various olours are similar. I rather like this "accidental" Salmon Pink"!!

Returning to the Ford itself, and referring to Post #7 above, I have in recent weeks, added another Ford Sedan to my collection; the tan, third from the bottom in the photograph below and the third left in the bottom photograph. This model has the shortened front axle supports and the inscription "Ford Sedan" under the roof. More later! The colour tan is also of a slightly paler shade of tan.

I still have a few more to acquire before the collection of this single model,  the139a/170 Ford Fordor Sedan is complete! What a nice series that Meccano manufactured for over 10 years. Can  anyone imagine a toy maker these days even thinking of retaining a basic design for anything more than a year or two!

Larger images are below.

Kind regards

Bruce H.   (150)

20172206/1124/2230

 


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Bruce---Great post along with super photos, showing all of those subtle shade variations. Seeing them all together makes it very clear just how much they varied....very interesting!
Best regards, Terry


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Dinkinius
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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Thank you Terry for your most appreciated comments.

This set started with just an example of the red with shortened front axle supports and then the collection of Ford Sedans grew from there!  There are still four more to add before the series is complete.

One thing I have been meaning to include in my previous Posts: Why did Meccano make this model without the centre windscreen (windshield) pillar?  Was it an intentional omission or did something occur with the mould very early in its life which to rectify it would have involved a lot of time and therefore expense?

All the previous 39 series (with the exception of the Lincoln Zephyr) had their centre pillar, as to the later 139b Hudson Commodore, so why leave it out with the 139a Ford Fordor?

Kind regards

Bruce H.   (150)

20173006/1128/0312


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dinkycollect
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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Bruce

Did the original Ford have a center windscreen pilar which was part of the body ?

The picture which I have shows a very thin pilar or a seal which was part of the windscreen and not part of the body. If you reduce this pilar to 1/43, it will be hardly visible. for example : 2cm / 43 = 0,4 mm or 3cm / 43 = 0,6mm        impossible to cast.


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Dinkinius
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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Jacques

If you look at the photographs below showing a) 1954 Holden FJ Sedan b) Ford Fordor Sedan, and c) Hudson Commodore Sedan, all three vehicles have similar centre “posts”. These “posts” are in fact dual chrome supports for the glass windscreen for both sides. None of these vehicles with this type of windscreen had a metal extension from either the engine compartment and the roof.  The individual windscreen glass is slotted into each side together with a rubber sealant. A similar system was used for all cars having separated windscreens.

One vehicle of which I have intimate knowledge is the Holden 215 and its successor, the Holden FJ. This can be seen with the following photograph. Please excuse the age-wear! This is my eldest brother standing beside his then “new” Holden FJ, with my mode of transport behind leaning on the garage! Dad worked in a Holden dealership, and we visited the showroom each time a new model was released. I also went down to the garage on Saturday afternoons when Dad had some jobs to finish. He was a fully qualified motor mechanic and held a diploma issued by the Automotive Mechanical and Electrical Engineering Institute, a prestigious organisation that only granted these certificates to those who have passed a very stringent test. I was very proud of Dad and his wisdom that came in handy with my own Morris Minor and then Hillman Minx Series II -  as well as my later "stuff" from Japan!!

This system can also be seen with the following Ford Fordor Sedan and Hudson Commodore Sedan.

As can be seen above, the centre post is a chromed strip. Therefore, if the Hudson Commodore Sedan was given a centre windscreen post, I can see no reason why the Ford Fordor should have been missed out.

Just found a photograph I took of "Mouse", my 1954 Morris Minor - its centre windscreen post can also be seen.  I remember this one very well, as when I polished Mouse, I had to also include this chromed centre windscreen post as well as all the other chromed areas around the windscreen, doors, etc.

I still have the gear lever "knob" as a souvenir of this little motor car, my first venture into car ownership! I was so glad to move up to a 1958 Hillman Minx II in Antelope paintwork, as I could start saving money!  Mouse was a mess of a car and I only bought it for wheels to get me out to a farm where a young lady lived!

Kind regards

Bruce Hoy   (150)

20170907/1136/1924


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

I only have one 170 Ford Fordor Sedan to contribute here, but it is the low-line version in red and cream.  I bought this in 1959-1960 directly from H. Hudson Dobson, and at the time, definitely did not like the two-tone colors that Meccano was introducing on our Dinky Toys.  Included is a photograph of the box, which shows a high-line version.  My question is, did Dinky ever make this box with the correct low-line illustration, or did they simply have plenty of high-line boxes and just used those?

                Best regards,  Terry


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Hello Terry,

As far as I know only the highline illustration was used for the box for the two tone Ford Fordor. This is also the case with the 171 Hudson Commodore and the 172 Studebaker Landcruiser. Dinky Toys saved some money there!

For the 171 Hudson Commodore early boxes show the first type of two tone paint scheme, with the body in one colour and the roof and window frames in the second color. 

Kind regards,

Rob

 

 


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Re : -139a and 170 Ford Fordor Sedan (1949-59)

Rob---Thanks for confirming that....I was thinking the same thing. I also have the later low-line Studebaker, bought at the same time, and it also has the low-line box. Dinky did find ways to improvise and save money!
Best regards, Terry