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Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

-533, 933 and 419 Leyland Cement Wagon (1953-1959)

I found this DT 533 Leyland Cement Wagon with ridged hubs. I examined all sales auctions of Vectis and could not find one sold with ridged hubs. They all have Supertoy hubs. Does a member something know about the existence of this model with ridged hubs?

Regards, Jan O

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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DTCA MemberUSA

Jan--I just checked Jacques' encylopedia, and he states that the early versions of this Cement Wagon did indeed come with ridged wheels, as did the other two Leyland trucks.  He does not give a date for the changeover to Supertoys wheels, but I would guess you have a very early one.  Did it come with a box with a date code inside?  It sure appears to be in very nice condition.

        Best regards,  Terry

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Jan O (and Terry)

That was a very interesting find - and in near mint condition too!  Another Dinky Toy that has been hibernating!! (I just hope it is not a very careful restoration.  I too would be interested in seeing pictures of the box, and any stamp on the inside of the lid, or exterior of the base!)

I have just checked through old issues of Meccano Magazine, and the following images are interesting as the 522, 532 and 555 appear in these artist impressions to be shod with ridged Supertoy hubs but the 533 shows it to be with grooved hubs.

The 514 (only in ridged Supertoy hubs) with the 532 shows that both were shod with the same ridged Supertoy hubs.

Then we come to the 533 Leyland Comet Cement Wagon, and the artist impression seems to show the normal grooved Supertoys hubs. Placing all these models in chronological order of release these are the artist's impressions of the model's hubs:

June 1949                          Ridged        531  Leyland Comet Lorry

December 1949                 Ridged        571  Coles Mobile Crane - later to grooved Supertoy hubs

November 1951                 Ridged       514  Guy Van Lyons Swiss Rolls

January 1952                      Ridged       532  Leyland Comet with Hinged Tailboard - then grooved Supertoy hubs

April 1952                           Grooved    514  Guy Van “Weetabix” However early issues were shod with ridged Supertoy hubs.

September 1952               Grooved    551  AEC Shell Tanker

October 1952                       Ridged       522 Big Bedford Lorry

November 1952                  Ridged       555 Fire Engine with Extending Ladder

February 1953                   Grooved    533 Leyland Comet Cement Wagon

Note the difference between the 533 and the 30x Electric Articulated Lorry indicating two different styles of hubs.

Apparently the artist's impressions were used for the box labels as shown by the images of the box for the 522 and 532 both with ridged Supertoy hubs and 533 which clearly shows the model with grooved Supertoy hubs. I am just wondering if the ridged Supertoy hubs was a case of supply and demand. Perhaps there was an under-supply of grooved Supertoy hubs at a point in time, and an over-supply of ridged Supertoy hubs at various times, and as these were purely toys, whichever was available was utilized until the supply problems had been resolved. Or, Meccano was undecided at the time whether these models should be Supertoys or plain Dinky Toys. Subsequent years with sales number changes clearly shows Meccano was in a state of constant confusion!

Hopefully Jan, your model still has its box, and hopefully has a quality inspection stamp which would show the month and year when the model was manufactured.  I cannot wait to see the image of this stamp!

Terry, what does Jacque's encyclopedia state with the hubs for the Fire Engine and Big Bedford?  It looks as if we all have to keep an eye open for ridged hubs on the 522, 532 and 555!

Jan - now look what you started!!!blush

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

20161014/1006/1250

 

 

Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Terry and Bruce.

Many thanks for your comments. Very appriciated. Unfortunately there is no box. I research the views of the members about the appearance of this model with ridged hubs because I don't know the history of this model from the first owner if it is original. I have the opportunity to buy it, but I doubt.

I add pictures of MM March 1953 and two pictures of the real one.

Kind regards, Jan O.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Hello Jan

Many thanks for uploading the page from MM as well as those two splendid colour photographs of the Real Leyland Comet Portland Cement truck. If the prototype had the front mudguards and bumper painted dark blue, I wonder why Meccano did not follow suit, unless it would have increased the cost of the model.

Your photographs may very well be the catalyst for a craftsman out there to restore a dilapidated model choosing the scheme shown above.

It is a pity that the model has lost its box though - still we may be able to unravel this mystery.  Can you upload another photograph of the underneath of your model, making it as sharp as you can, as there is one small area I would like to re-examine in close detail.  I have found one small item that is of interest but I will wait for the image of the chassis before making any comment.

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

20161015/1009/0208

Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

As I said, I don't yet have the model. I'm still negotiating with the seller about the price while I in the mean time examine the comments on my question. I will post the picture if I buy and receive the model.

By the way: I did a post at your new subject "Boxes", but could not post it as a reply to you. The reply button on the end of your comment did not appear, also repeatedly not. Therefore I pushed finally on the quick reply button at the beginning of your comment. I wonder if you also got a message in your email box as a reply when I post it with the quick reply button.

Regards, Jan.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Sorry Jan, I could not see any reply in my recent Boxes Topic, nor any email message either for that matter on this subject.  In the Boxes ... topic your Post concerning your very nice, uncommon 934 Leyland Octopus Wagon is the only Post from you immediately following my opening Post.

As for this 533 model, it is either a very rare trial example, or someone has gone to extra-ordinary length to duplicate such a model. It could be done by using the base of a 531, carefully removing the base plate, remove the tow hook rivet and carefully covering the hole, repainting the body after removing the red and then doing the same process with a replacement tray.  That would solve the difficulty with the yellow hubs at the rear, as this colour is virtually identical to the yellow used for the model, at least comparing my boxed 531 with that of my 533.

I have mentioned the preceding as the nut and screw are not quite right - the screw is too long, and the nut and screw has not been blued which was the case with the 533..

Still I am probably wrong with my assessment, so my advice would be, if the seller is not asking the earth for this model, take the plunge and buy it, unless you can physically inspect it beforehand to satisfy yourself as to its genuineness!

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

20161018/1013/0300

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hello Jan and all,

You found a very peculiar example Jan! One should have the model in hands, but looking at the tyres and the axle ends it seems to be genuine in my eyes. If the price is not too ridiculous you might certainly be inclined to buy it (I would). I believe it is a remarkable exception, which – like Bruce suggested too – may have had to do with a very incidental shortage of grooved hubs.

Even the mock-up of the Cement Lorry has grooved hubs – and I have never seen a Dinky Supertoy introduced after 1952 (like this one, February 1953) with ridged hubs. I haven’t seen a 532 Leyland Comet with Hinged Tailboard with ridged hubs either, though available early 1952 already and seen illustrated with ridged hubs in the catalogues and MM. Can anyone show me an example with ridged hubs? Indeed, the mock-up of no. 532 has ridged hubs too, but the design of this model took place as early as 1950 already.

The earliest Comet, however, the Wagon, no. 531, introduced in July 1949, is arguably often seen with ridged hubs, as many will have been produced before the introduction of the grooved DST hubs in the course of 1952.

Finally, a lovely photo of the real one that is. It looks to be a modern setting with a possibly restored example. For my last year’s calendar I was happy to use a seemingly contemporary photo, which was kindly made available to me by Dave Busfield.  

By the way, there are quite some Dinky(Super)Toys without wing details added, which are so familiar on the real-world vehicles. The blue finish of those would have made the model even more attractive than it is already!

And if anyone finds a no. 555 Fire Engine with Extending Ladder with ridged hubs I .....

Kind regards, Jan W

micromodels's picture
micromodels
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DTCA Member

Hello everyone,

I have just received a 533 Portland Cement lorry with the normal grooved hubs.  Maybe Bruce could decipher the stamp on the inside of the lid?  The price on the end is 6/10.  The box illustration shows grooved hubs.  I also have a 419 to compare.   The 533 is marked as a Supertoy and has '533' on the tray casting.   The 419 is a Dinky Toy and has '419' under the tray.

Ron F

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Hello Ron

A great example of a really early issue - it was made a month before the model was released - the usual early batch that goes out to the various agents in the UK to be ready for sale when the Leyland is advertised in the Meccano Magazine.  But I do not understand the price of 6/10, as this is a price for which the Cement Wagon was never sold. On its release it was priced at 6/- which was reduced to 5/9 by April and then 5/3 on 1 October 1953. Are you quite certain the price is written as 6/10?  Maybe the agent was milking his little customers as the retail price set by Meccano was followed by its agents with the sales representatives keeping an eye on things the main purpose being the good name of Meccano itself. 

The stamp states GP 1 3  equates to January 1953.

My 533 in a blue covered box was quality inspected in May 1953 but unfortunately has no price on the box. (The style of numerals for the later sales numbers for this model have been written in ink on the upper label does seem to indicate ownership at one time in France, Belgium or The Netherlands, although Jan will be able to correct this analysis!)  I have added a picture of it, together with a later but uncommon 533 in a blue striped box. This one was quality inspected in November 1953, the price 5/3 on the box matching the time frame from September 1953 to March 1954. Incidentally Ron, in September 1953, the 533 Cement Wagon cost 9/3 in New Zealand. 

The inspection date for my 533 in a blue striped box adds information as to when this style of box was first introduced for the 533 Leyland Cement Wagon replacing the blue covered box with orange and white label. (The honour for being the first model packaged in this new, brighter blue-striped box goes to the 582 Pullmore Car Transporter in April 1953.)

And coming up at the rear, is my own 419 Leyland Cement Wagon in its yellow covered box, quality inspected in January 1957, which I received for either Christmas later that year, or my birthday almost at the end of the year. Sadly it is now looking a little sorry, for wear and tear with that having occurred during my two decades in Papua New Guinea.

Kind regards

Bruce   150)

20161016/1012/2148

 

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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DTCA MemberUSA

Very nice examples Bruce, especially that early one. Hard to find one without the usual few chips in that beautiful yellow paint.
Best regards, Terry

micromodels's picture
micromodels
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DTCA Member

Hi Bruce and all,

Thanks for the interpretation of the date.   Here is a scan of the price written on the end.  Presumably it is a price?

Cheer

Ron

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Many thanks Ron for the scan of the end label with the price of 6/10.  It seems as if there is another number underneath the numeral  "6".Would you mind sending me a large image of this photograph to my email address?  I would like to enlarge it somewhat.

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

20161018/1014/1853

 

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Although this model never had any change in finish (except perhaps for the width of the silver trim of the front bumper), some examples are far more glossy than others. I love the soft, satin finish of this one (hard to visualize this in a photo). The box happens to bear the same date as Bruce's, January 1957. Kind regards, Jan 

micromodels's picture
micromodels
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DTCA Member

Hi everyone,

Now I have a fleet of 533/933/419 Leyland Comet Cement Wagons.  I had not noticed the dual numbering on the 933 before I took the photo. The unboxed one is a 419 but I do not have a box for it.  Did in come in s striped box before the yellow one?

Ron F

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Ron, I have never seen 419's in other than yellow boxes and I have never seen yellow boxes with other reference numbers than 419. Kind regards, Jan

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Hello Ron

I can confirm Jan's last Post in that the 419 was only available in a yellow covered box from August 1956 to August 1958 the latest date I have found with a quality inspection stamp, with the 419 not appearing in the 1959 UK Catalogue dated May 1959, and June 1959 its last appearance in an Agent's Order Form. An Australian price leaflet containing the 419 has a later date of August 1959, but that may be due to shipping time from the UK which was usually about 3 months in those days. So the ship with the leaflets among its cargo may have also contained the last of the 419 models being shipped to Australia.

Quality Control Stamps for the Leyland Cement Wagon with its original sales number of 533 that I have gathered are for January 1953 only in the original orange and white label over a blue covered box. So far I have no quality inspection stamps for February, March and April 1953.

In May 1953, the first of the new blue-striped boxes started appearing for the 533 which continued until November 1953. The next Quality Inspection dates are for February 1954, July 1954 and December 1954. Then we have the arrival of the new sales number of 933 which appeared from  March 1955 then October, November and December 1955, and finally February 1956. We then have a long gap until August 1956 with the arrival of the brighter, 419 in the all yellow box with a coloured drawing of the model and then still in the same yellow covered box, we have stamps for January 1957, April 1957, July 1957 then a long gap until May 1958 followed by another long gap until August 1958. Hopefully in time, we may be able to add more quality inspection stamps that help fill in some, if not all the missing dates. It is also highly likely that no Leyland Cement Wagons were in production during the dates currently a mystery.

I hope the above makes some sense of the order of things!

Kind regards

Bruce H.   (150)

20161103/1030/2140

 

Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Today I found the solution to my question in post # 1 about a 533 Leyland Cement Wagon with ridged hubs 4 years ago. I had never seen this one with ridged hubs and wanted to buy it as a very special model, but was not sure about the authenticity. That is why I first wanted to know members' opinions about the authenticity of the model. When I finally wanted to buy it, it turned out that the car had already been sold.

Now I saw exactly the same 533 for sale on Ebay by the same Canadian seller, but now as being restored, see https://www.ebay.com/itm/DINKY-Meccano-UK-1953-LEYLAND-COMET-PORTLAND-CE...

I was then disappointed that the car was already sold when I wanted to buy it. Now I am happy to know that the model has been manipulated.

Kind regards, Jan Oldenhuis 5 January 2021

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Jan,

The ridged hubs have been deleted from the Supertoys in 1952 and the Leyland cement wagon was issued in February 1953 so there should not be any of these trucks with ridged hubs.

All the best.

Jacques