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janwerner's picture
janwerner
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Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56
--33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Hi, the no. 33w Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon is a familiar item. Pre-war it could be realized by combining the independent nos. 33a and 33c. Post-war it was available for 10 years (1947-1957), indeed, as no. 33w.
But there is also a Mechanical Horse and Covered Wagon. Many of you may have seen an example every now and then, but not often.

Above two examples, my post-war version on the left and David Cooke's nice pre-war version on the right. Still, it is never mentioned officially as far as I know.

So, my questions are:
a. What catalogue number or other reference can be attached to this model?

b. A regular trade box of the no. 33w Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon will not do for this model (see image above). It will need a higher packing than that. Has anybody ever seen a trade box with/for this covered model?

I look forward to any ideas or comments!

Kind regards, Jan Werner


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goldenp
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Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

I can't help with the query, but here is what is suppoosed to be the sole surviving Mechanical Horse in the National Railway Museum in York. It was dark and I notice heh camera shake.

The L.M.S. railway developed with the Karrier company the "Karrier Cob" powered by a twin cylinder engine. It could pull a 3 tonne trailer.


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janwerner
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Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

A recent Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon acquisition produces the seventh post-war variant in my collection. An overview:


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Joined: Tue, 07/07/2015 - 05:27

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Jan--I remember seeing some of your earlier posts on these, and the covered trailer version in particular. What a splendid collection you have, and in so many nice colors. Her in the states, we tended to see the later blue and cream version most of the time.
I also remember some discussion about that tilt, and was it the same as on the Austin covered wagon? Seems like measurements were made and it was found there were small differences......any recent thoughts on that? I tend to believe that these were produced by Meccano and somehow not listed. Has Jacques weighted in on this before??? It would have certainly made sense to offer these, as the pre-war trailer was not continued, and a proper tilt was that was needed
Terry


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janwerner
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Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Hi Terry, unfortunately I still do not have the final answers to some of my questions put above. However, one of your questions, regarding the sharing of the tilt, can be answered visually below:

Kind regards, Jan


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Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 22:49

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

As far as I know, all covered trailers are code 3 and Meccano never issued this model. There is no document or box to prove that it was ever made. It is too easy to make one.


starni999
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Joined: Thu, 07/09/2015 - 07:19

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Hi all,

Funny I had a chat with an old friend at Kidderminster Toyfair last Saturday about this very topic, saying it was a shame Dinky didn't issue the Mech Horse with a tin tilt.
Here are some I messed about with when I was cleaning the cabinet..........

Had to fudge this one a bit as the tilt doesn't really fit, but what a lovely model it would have made..........

You can see here how short the 25 Series tilt is on the 30 Series...

Chris Warr.


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Richard
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Joined: Mon, 07/06/2015 - 20:56

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

I am agree with Jacques. It seems that the Mechanical Horse trailers 33w was never issued with a cover.
Richard


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Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

I just received a new Dinky Toys model a couple of days ago, and it is an early 1950's Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon, in the satin brick red color.  When I saw this listed on eBay, it just said used and in good condition.  When I received it, I was pleasantly surprised to see it was almost mint, with hardly a mark anywhere.  Even the coupling latch is almost free of marks or wear spots, so it almost looks like this was stored with the wagon separate from the tug.  As you can see, this one has the black ridged wheels, and the 20 mph roundel on the back, along with crimped axle ends.  So I am guessing around 1952 or so for a production date?  Please weigh in with your thoughts about dating this one.  This is the first Dinky model I have bought with the satin brick red color, so it is new to me.  I guess I am wondering what the origin was of this color, particularly in the satin or flat finish, as almost all Dinky's from that era feature gloss paint.  Was this color type used often in the British motoring industry on commercial trucks?  This color is similar to, but not exactly the same as the pre-war Mechanical Horse and enclosed trailer, in the GWR livery, so I have included a few photos showing the two of them together.  I never thought much of the Mechanical Horse and Wagon as a youngster, but in my later collecting years have come to appreciate what a neat little and unusual model that it is!

                    Regards,  Terry

 


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Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Hi Terry, a real beauty there! I would narrow the production era of his one to 1947-1949. The black hubs (and these monochrome colours) were discontinued at the end of 1949 as far as I know. I understand that the box on the third illustration just serves as a stage and does not belong to this very model. Kind regards, Jan


john45
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Joined: Tue, 04/07/2015 - 20:07

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Hello Friends,

I recently bought the original drawing for the tilt of 25 Covered wagon. Old question is still was the tilt used for the 33 Open wagon and other models. Maybe I can bring some light in this discussion.

Dimensions and Job numbers are on the drawing No 6678 with name Van top - miniature motor lorry, probably drawn 2-1-1934. Motor lorry 25b later was named Covered wagon. The top was used on 6677 and must be 25b. Dimensions are long 5,92 mm and wide 3,1 mm, this for the parts that go inside the back of the wagon. These dimensions are correct for the Wagon.

The 33 Open wagon has dimensions inside long 5,83 mm and wide 3,1 mm. So the tilt is too long to fit perfect into the 33 Open wagon. I cannot image that Meccano did use a part that did not fit properly into a model.

Another question can be solved. The tilt was also used on Job no 13509. This number is for post-war model Austin covered wagon. I do not collect post-war models so cannot verify the dimensions. Maybe someone can confirm the dimensions on the Austin.

The dimensions on the drawing in inches: length 2.390 minus 2 x 040 for detachment part. High .750. Wide 1.312 and 1.240 for detachment part. Tinplate .015. One end open, formed from one blank. On the drawing is Issue 1, so the tilt was never altered.

John.

 

 


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dinkycollect
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Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 22:49

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Hi all,

The tilt of the 25b Covered wagon fits exactly on the Austin wagon but it is about 1/2 mm. too long for the open wagon.

John 45

You must have gor wrong somewhere in your measurements. This tilt is not 5,92 x 3,1 x 19,05 mm wide but 60,9 x 33 x 23,5 mm.

These are my calculations.

                                                            

The dimensions in inches in the calculated column are those from your drawing. Please correct your posts so that no one is mistaken.

Any way, the mechanical horse is not an accurate reproduction of the Karrier Cob, the rear wheels are at least twice too large and a trailer of the same type as the 25 g but larger would have been more accurate.

I would most welcome a scan of the drawing to add to the Encycloapedia.


john45
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Joined: Tue, 04/07/2015 - 20:07

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Hello Jacques,

Of course the dimensions I listed are in cm not mm, sorry for this confusion. I measured again and my tilts are 5,86 - 5,92 cm for the parts to fit in the back of the wagon. Measure of drawing for this part is 5,9 cm. I used a micro-meter so the dimensions are correct!  Were did your dimensions come from?

John.


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Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

John---I compared my post-war Austin Wagon bed with that of the 25 series open wagon.  I did not actually measure them, but I lined them up, side by side, right next to each other.  And I have a very good eye for discerning small differences in dimensions, and I can tell you the beds are the same length and width in the 25 series wagon and the Austin wagon.  Doing the same comparison with the trailer from the Mechanical Horse, it is obvious that that the bed of the Mechanical Horse trailer is slightly shorter.  It also appeared that by trimming or filing the fitting edge of the 25/Austin tilt, by a very small amount (1/32" or so), it would fit nicely, and that could be done in a matter of a few minutes with a good file.  With no evidence to suggest otherwise, I think we are left stating that the Mechanical Horse always came with an open wagon, and that many were adapted to covered via a slight modification that anyone could do.  I do think that Dinky maybe missed the boat by not offering it with a tilt, and then using various liveries.....it would have been a natural thing to do.

                  Best regards,  Terry

 

 


john45
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Joined: Tue, 04/07/2015 - 20:07

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Hello Terry,

Thanks for your answer, indeed a Mechanical Horse with covered wagon would have been a nice model. I have both pre war boxes with 5 and 4 trailers. Not clear to me why Meccano changed from 5 to 4 trailers. Probably they want to offer a cheaper set.  A set 5  trailers with a covered wagon instead of the Box van with Meccano advertising would have been more interesting.

John.


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dinkycollect
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Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 22:49

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

The reason for the set of four may be that some of the tooling for the box van was definitely out of order.


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Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Jacques---But didn't they continue making the box van used with the four different railroad liveries, after the other set went from 5 to 4? I would have thought that they box van was popular, especially since they could add liveries to the sides. Quite a mystery, but then Meccano did some inexplicable things at times!
Regards, Terry


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dinkycollect
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Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 22:49

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

The 33 w Mechanical Horse and open wagon was packed in at least four different types of trade box, the latest one showing the double numbering 33 W - 415.

The first yellow end flaps box was also printed with both reference numbers for a short time. The light blue horse and cream trailer contained in this box had black ridged hubs with crimped, later domed axles.

The next box was the same but with the reference 415 only and the hubs were of the same light blue as the horse.

Some of these boxes had a text printed on the sides without a drawing. What was this text  and were the boxes issued before or after the same ones without text ?

A picture of the box side with text would be welcomed.

 

Al.

centering the pictures usually centers the text as well.


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dinkycollect
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Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 22:49

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

The Cob was issued by Karrier in 1930, it was a developpement from their three wheels "Colt" truck. The press gave it the nick-name of "Mechanical Horse". Some pictures of the five types made are available but without any caption so who knows which is which ?

                                           Cob 2,5 - 3 ton 3 wheel tractor (1930) The Dinky Toys.
                                           Cob Junior 4 ton 3 wheel tractor
                                           Cob Major 4 ton 3 wheel tractor
                                           Cob Senior 6 ton 3 wheel tractor
                                           Cob Six 6 ton 3 wheel tractor (1934)

              

The Mechanical Horse which is preserved at the York National Railway Museum is a different type from the Dinky. It has the tiny rear wheels with solid rubber tyres and was meant to draw horse carts by lifting their front axle.

              

It seems that later on these carts have been modified or new ones made, the front bogie was replaced by an other one which had no front axles but dummy wheels à la Dinky. This allowed the use of larger wheels and inflatable tyres on the horse.

               

The Karrier Cob prototype for the Dinky was made only from 1931 until 1934 when it was replaced by a more comfortable model with doors and twin rear wheels on the rear axle

              

              
.

There are many variations of the real Cob but very little information about them has reached us.

The Mechanical horse as made by Meccano did not exist. This type did not have doors, these were added by Meccano to avoid to have to make the model in several parts.

                     

only one casting variation is known for the Dinky prime mover.


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dinkyfan
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Joined: Tue, 07/07/2015 - 05:27

Re : --33w and 415 Mechanical Horse and Open Wagon (1947-59)

Jacques---Thanks for the very nice and interesting additional information on the Mechanical Horse and Wagon, and the great photos.....I have never seen any of those before!  Like you said, Dinky likely had to add to doors to the Horse, as it would have been not only difficult to cast, but also very weak at that point......the addition of the doors added stiffness and some "beef" to the sides of the little cab.

          Regards,  Terry