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buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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Factory Colour Samples

Here is my Christmas present to me which arrived today.

A Type 2 chassis 25e Tipping Wagon with its original factory colour sample label from 26th May 1948.

Dave

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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Both sides of the label for the Tipping Wagon

Dave

dinkyfan's picture
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Dave-
Very nice.....there can't be too many of those around, and having the original label with its hand writing is wonderful. Nice Christmas present I must admit!
Terry

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janwerner
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Congratulations Dave, with this nice acquisition. For me it's a surprise that in May 1948 and on a type 3 model already the coloured hubs were suggested. It must have taken some time before it was definitely decided to adopt this colour scheme, as I have always presumed that these are seen on post-1950, type 4 export models only (see my example). But perhaps others do know of production examples of type 3 models with coloured hubs?

Type 3 with the regular black hubs.

Type 4 with coloured hubs and early bigger (not small) tyres, ca. 1950 and for export only in my opinion.

Kind regards, Jan

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Jan--I was also thinking the same thing....that the colored hubs appeared much later and are often said to be "export" models. Here are two of my 25 series that have colored hubs. Both are Type 4, and with the later, smaller tires.
Terry

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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Unless my identification process is completely wrong this is a Type 2 chassis not a Type 3

I understood the Type 3 to be solid whereas mine has the three holes.

Dave

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janwerner
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Sorry Dave, I was just looking at the wings. I couldn't even suspect that it was 2nd type, because that makes the chronology even more incomprehensable. The 2nd type presumably wasn't in production anymore in 1948. This shows that it was all about the paint scheme, for which they just used an older casting available. Even so, May 1948 is early for the possible actual adoption of the coloured hubs scheme, it may have been executed on production models much later.
Kind regards, Jan

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buzzer999
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I agree Jan, the chronology may possibly be questioned. This is what I found fascinating about this item.

There is an interesting thing on the axles of this vehicle. The front axle is shiny and completely free from rust. The rear axle is also shiny and completely free from rust except where the string on the label has been tied, see photo above. This sugessts that the string was wet, or damp, at some time and initiated the corrosion process, there are some rust stains on the string.

The truck and the label are both 100% original so, as you suggest, the casting may have been an old one. Has this truck got the original label, or a newer one fitted to it. We will never know, but it is just possible that some of the previously accepted dating may be brought into question.

These conundrums are what Dinky collecting is all about. I think I will do an article for the Journal on this to see if a wider membership has any further thoughts on the matter.

Dave

jackh
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DTCA MemberIsrael

Fascinating thread!
Dave, may I suggest we hire the services of Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson to understand why the bit of rust on the axle? Why the piece of rope would be damp? Not obvious at all and most suspicious...(LOL, of course!!). :cheer: :lol:
Most cordially,
Jacques H.

sjmcm1982
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Hello Dave

What a fabulous anachronism you have found for us! I remember several of these going through Christies in the 1990s and always wondered where they had gone. 1948 seems odd as a date in that it does not make sense in terms of its specifications but considering that it

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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Hello Stfan

This came from the auction at Collectoys in France on 7th December 2013.

There were two paint samples Lot 629 and Lot 646, no additional information was given with them, the results were as follows:

Lot 629 a 25a Wagon Start Price 200

sjmcm1982
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I believe that these toys first appeared at the Christie

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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Hi Stfan

You are right about the Remy-Meeus Collection, in the 1st Auction at Christies on 25 September 2001 the following car paint samples appeared:

Lot 295 38b Sunbeam Talbot
Lot 320 38e Armstrong Siddeley
Lot 341 39b Oldsmobile Sedan
Lot 364 39e Chrysler Royal Sedan
Lot 391 40b Triumph 1800
Lot 400 40d Austin Devon
Lot 416 40e Standard Vanguard

I have high-resolution photoshop images of all the ones mentioned above and will post each of them as time permits.

This catalogue does not include any commercial vehicles.

You have now set me off on a mission to try to find out more about my tipping wagon.

Dave

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buzzer999
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I am putting together a spreadsheet of all of the colour samples I can find, I have had a really good trawl through the internet this morning.

Christie's historical data only goes back to 1998 but I have just bought a catalogue from the 14th September 1995 sale on e-bay so I will add the information from that when it arrives.

I will put it on here after I get the new info.

Dave

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Exactly Dave, you will find info in that catalogue and other related sources. Many of these items (colour samples, original factory drawings, factory trials, mock-ups etc.) changed ownership from the original factory people (and the Richardsons) to collectors in the 1990s! Indeed Remy-Meeus was one of the fiercest bidders in those days.
Regards, Jan

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This is the first of the items sold at the Christies, Remy-Meeus Auction of 24th September 2001.

It is a 38b Sunbeam-Talbot Colour Sample.

Dave

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buzzer999
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This is one of the items sold at the Christies, Remy-Meeus Auction of 24th September 2001.

It is a 38e Armstrong Siddeley.

Dave

sjmcm1982
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Interesting that this one has crimped axles, non standard for any post war 38 series toy.

Kind regards, Stfan

starni999
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DTCA MemberUK

Hi all,
Dave,that's a conundrum!
I would not have expected to see a T2 chassis that late, and with coloured hubs!
It's a wonderful oddity, no doubt a factory sample in my mind for being so out of the known dates for the coloured hubs.
I have long held the belief that in some cases older castings were kept around Binns Rd for quite some time before being assembled, maybe held back in odd batches when a run of models was completed, I can think of no other explanation for some of the weird timeline horrors I have found over the years!
Chris Warr.

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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I am happy now that I have not questioned the long established timelines with this lorry.

Meccano were famous for never wasting anything and they obviously used an old casting for the paint sample.

Here it is with the back raised.

Dave

sjmcm1982
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STARNI999 wrote:
"
It's a wonderful oddity, no doubt a factory sample in my mind for being so out of the known dates for the coloured hubs. "

Hello Chris

I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement above.

The tag is dated the 26th May 1948, I would not consider this as being a massive oddity for coloured hubs considering that in July 1948 we saw them introduced on the 14A BEV & 40B Triumph.

It should be noted that the black Triumph sample from this "samples group" is dated the 30th of September 1948 and it has a note to change the hub colour from silver to black. By the date we can deduce that the black Triumph was likely the second release colour, indeed the tag also notes that it is "issue 2".

Kindest regards, Stfan

starni999
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DTCA MemberUK

Hi Stfan,
You are right, I was getting mixed up with the coloured hubs on the 25 Series only, which I've only seen on type 4's, let alone a type 2, so I was forgetting the date stamp, the '48 date is right for coloured hubs of course.
Chris Warr.
BTW : I have a black 40b, black hubs as well!

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This is one of the items sold at the Christies, Remy-Meeus Auction of 24th September 2001.

It is a 39b Oldsmobile 6 Sedan.

Dave

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buzzer999
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This is one of the items sold at the Christies, Remy-Meeus Auction of 24th September 2001.

It is a 39e Chrysler Royal Sedan.

Dave

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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Another Dinky colour sample, this time the 25f Market Gardners Wagon:

This time the sample and the chassis match each other so everything looks more normal than my Tipping Lorry.

Dave

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That's interesting, Dave, to see mr. H. Owen's name mentioned. He was the man in the factory of the colour schemes, as my factory memo No. 15995 confirms. He received colour schemes only, in the internal communication stream of the Meccano factory, some details:

Besides, the colour scheme shown of this Market Gardiners Van was in fact accepted and used for regular production in the end.

Kind regards, Jan

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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Here are the two sides of the label on the Market Gardners van.

Dave

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H. Owen was probably the son of William Owen who in 1908 was one of the seven share holders of Meccano Ltd. when it was formed.

William Owen was a solicitor in Liverpool.

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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Here is a photo of my third paint sample.

It is the 30c Daimler Saloon

Dave

janwerner's picture
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Great Dave, very interesting. Once, I hope you will give me the opportunity to see them with my own eyes! So fascinating, this pre-production material. Kind regards, Jan

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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They are rally nice Jan.

If you are coming to Derby in June for the AGM I will have them all there.

Dave

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