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Owing to the current ongoing situation, the DTCA 2020 AGM which had been booked for the end of June, cannot now take place.   We will have to try and reschedule for later in the year once matters are clearer.

Production of the DTCA special edition Omnisport model has been postponed.

 

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Townie54's picture
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In the 'Signing Off' piece in Model Collector March 2015 I invited comment on the many reproductions, and the response in the main has been supportive of them, generally with reference to Atlas. Personally I have found the UK Issues to be somewhat underwhelming in choice and over a third of mine have been rehomed via eBay so far.

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The next issue of Model Collector will include a letter to the editor about the Atlas Auto-Union and one of the 24H Citro

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I have my own trenchant (though hypocritical, since I seem to have accumulated several dozen) opinion of these Chinese replicas, but I did not mean to open that for discussion here. Every collector's opinion is worthy of respect and consideration, one way or another.

From my vantage point here in California, USA, however, I continue to be puzzled that the discussion in UK-based forums and magazines always tends to be about Atlas this and Atlas that, when more often than not the Dan Toys versions have come first and are more straightforwardly available. Yes, the Dan Toys are more expensive, but quality control seems to be better, and production quantities are truly limited (at least until the same tooling eventually gets recycled into "Dinky" or "CIJ" versions).

Certainly, it's true that no "British" models have yet appeared under the Dan Toys banner.

Regarding the production of replicas that have the "wrong" wheels, colour, or whatever, I take a different position from Jacques: I believe the more interesting replicas are those of prototypes, or liveries that Binns Road or Bobigny could have produced at the time but did not. A Chinese replica that aims only to be, in effect, a 3-D colour Xerox copy of something that actually exists is, in my opinion, less intriguing than "what if" models. And, the latter at least contribute something original instead of being entirely derivative.

In any case, any "certificates of authenticity" or "accurate replica" claims made by Atlas likely have no legal standing -- admittedly, as a Yank I have little understanding of the Trade Descriptions Act -- and should be ignored like the marketing bumf they are.

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I, absolutely, totally agree with the post above from 'johnnyangel'

The attempted replication of what we had 50 or 60 years ago has not really worked, it has actually muddied the water significantly. This modern rubbish is being passed off as real Dinky on e-bay, and at collector's fairs - buyer beware!!! Sadly a lot of folks are being caught out by this, we should never criticise these people, they are acting in good faith.

Had Atlas done "neverwazzas' it would have enhanced the hobby.

Dave

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Well I see that I contradicted what I wrote in my first sentence about not wanting to open the rights and wrongs of the Atlas models to discussion. Mea culpa, but it was just too hard for me to hide my contempt for what Atlas has been doing.

If these replicas have to exist at all, I prefer the Dan Toys because, while they are replicas, they are doing more "what if" liveries and interesting things, but even more important, they are not trading under a hallowed name with decades of good will it is not theirs to claim.

Make no mistake, the term "official replica" on an Atlas model is especially repugnant because the only thing "official" is a fee paid to Mattel for the Dinky name. Mattel acquired the name by accident in the first place and had no interest in it whatsoever, beyond whoring it to the highest bidder. (An attitude taken by every one of its owners after 1979, I might add -- I have a letter sent to me in about 1981 from General Mills, offering to sell me the Dinky trademark after I had written them inquiring about it. Unfortunately I was just out of university and had no way to follow through, but I wish it could have been kept out of the hands of today's "legal" pirates.)

I also agree with Dave that the eBay market for Dinky is being sullied by the Atlas copies.

-- Jon

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Hear hear

Dave

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I have just received my DTCA '32' certificated Chrysler Airflow. Can we now expect posts about the silver detailing, the axle lengths and ends, the colour, the quality of paint finish, the price, the legitimacy of such copying, and so on?

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Questions you could ask about it might include the following:

-- Was it manufactured by people enduring a totalitarian, single-party government, some of them children being forced to work long hours?

-- Was it the product of two different multinational corporations?

-- Is it emblazoned with trademarks proclaiming it a "Dinky Toy"?

-- Is it a parasitical copy of something produced by designers, toolmakers, and workers who might even be still alive, living on a small pension, and who deserve better recognition than a Chinese ripoff?

I'm guessing that if it comes from the DTCA, it does not run afoul of any of these tests. Plenty of Dinky copies have been created that have been moral. The Atlas stuff, on the other hand ...

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I guess in these modern times if you don't buy Chinese made products you probably live in a cave, but I suspect a lot of us are actually looking at the undermining of values when a model bought to fill a gap in ones collection for

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Yes, some interesting points you make. And what of the Airflow? Where was it made, and are there any photos of it on the forum somewhere?

Cheers!

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Johnny,

I fully agree with you about the Atlas stuff. Are any copies od Dinky moral who ever and where ever they are made ?

The DTCA models are cast in Manchester I think and they are finished in Rotingdean near Brighton, Sussex. This is a picture of my visit to the "P & P copy models" factory a few years ago. A very neat little work shop in Ian's garden. I am the guy holding the hammer and Ian Law is the manufacturer of the Club Dinky France, DTCA and other models.

I like some of his models which are based on Dinky Toys but are not copies. The photo shows my opinion about copies of Dinky Toys.

There was an other guy making Dinky like models but not copies in Andora. Unfortunately, his chalet burnt and all his tools as well. Sad. The models were made under the marque of Imit Toys and here are two pages of his last catalogue.

Jacques.

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Jacques,

Thanks for the information!

I have had various white metal copies of Dinky Toys before and they did not concern me too much, mostly because they were essentially handcrafted out of love and in almost every case the Dinky name had been obliterated. I certainly have no objection to the DTCA Airflow. (Imit' Toys were also laudable, and I'm sad to hear about the fire.) But, cynical mass production by three multinationals working together (Mattel, Atlas, and CIJ-Norev) crosses the line in my view.

European law obviously permits the copying of old toys and the graphic art that accompanied them. I'm ignorant of whether this would be allowed in the U.S., but it would be nice if someone were at least making a contribution to an ex-Meccano employees' pension fund. (And I'm pretty sure that's not the case.) As the replicas move forward in time, it seems more likely that people who were involved in creating the originals are still alive, and ripping off their work becomes that much more insulting.

As you have pointed out in the Encyclopedia and elsewhere, many of the copies have been issued under the CIJ brand as well as under the Dinky and Dan Toys labels, so anyone who believes promises of "limited production" is being fooled.

-- J

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More information about upcoming models in the Atlas "Dinky" range --

According to an item on this page (http://www.forum-auto.com/automobile-pratique/modelisme-modeles-reduits/...) J-M Roulet has confirmed that the Guy Warrior Heinz van will be released in early 2016.

And from the http://club.caradisiac.com website:

I also found the following photo and have no idea what it means. Somebody's Photoshop exercise, or does this portend a new range of reduced-scale copies?

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A new range of 'mini Dinky' with the 1/64 collector or train enthusiasts in mind?

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Johnny,

Where did you find the picture of the mini Dinky Pigeot 206 ? Is this a photoshop trick or Roulet's last way to fill his pockets ?

On the same web site Roulet announces a new set with the 25C Citro

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The "mini" 206 appeared on this page: http://www.forum-auto.com/automobile-pratique/modelisme-modeles-reduits/...

As for the other announced Atlas versions of French Dinky, again we have the usual confusing mix of some things that are new, and some things that were released already by Dan Toys and CIJ.

I did like the livery on the "limited production" (ha ha) CIJ Stradair, as shown.

I would love to know more about the relationships between J-M Roulet, Daniel Pajchert (Dan-Toys), Atlas, CIJ-Norev, and of course Mattel. (If the latter's license of the Dinky trademark is only temporary, what horrors will we be subjected to next?)

It would be also interesting to know who is the one really "in charge" in terms of proposing new copies. History shows us that Pajchert and CIJ-Norev started a year or two before Atlas and Mattel became involved; on the other hand, who better to spin this complicated web than the individual who has experience as a government minister and head of a secret police agency?

As a former journalist, I can only wish I spoke French. I would interview Roulet, Pajchert and others and attempt to get the whole interesting story. It would also be fascinating to document the process through which the original Dinky Toys are copied. I presume originals are taken to pieces before they are laser-scanned, and this is ever more complicated as they turn to duplicating models with opening doors and other elaborate parts. (Will the doors on the cloned Ford Cortina and Zodiac actually work smoothly and without scratching paint, unlike the Liverpool originals? Good luck with that!)

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Ah, and regarding the Napthex model, I see from the Atlas website (http://www.editionsatlas.fr/collection/minisite/dinky-toys/camion-du-moi...) that they are justifying this release on the grounds that the designer of a Napthex advert used the Dinky as a model for an illustration he created. A tenuous connection indeed, and as Jacques has noted, this takes the "Dinky" line in a new and inauthentic direction. And thus the madness continues.

The CIJ recolour at least did not claim authenticity.

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Johnny,

As far as I know, it all started with Dan having some copies of Dinky Toys made in China by Norev. In fact Norev owns less than 49 % of the factory as any other foreing company in China. Does anybody know which factory this is ? As Dan sold under the marque Dan Toys, there was no problem with Mattel who says that they own the marques Dinky, Dinky Toys, Dinky Supertoys, Super Dinky and Mini Dinky. Do they ? As anybody can notice, the Atlas Dinky are sold under the marque DINKY TM which means that the marque is not registered otherwise it would be DINKY

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These are the only two documents after which Roulet has made this "r

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I am in the middle of a house move, but eventually when I can find my Dinky-related files I will post a copy of the letter I received in the early 80s from General Mills Kenner Parker division offering to sell the Dinky trademark to me. I do not recall whether they explicitly offered "Dinky," "Dinky Toys," or other variants or not. But I wish I had a time machine to go back and somehow scrape up the money. (At the time, I had the fantasy of producing models very similar to what Imit' later did.)

I checked the US trademark database and it seems that Mattel asserted the trademark to "Dinky Toys" but let it die in March of this year. Now they just lay claim to "Dinky". In any case, their hold on the Dinky name or any of its variants could only be questioned by someone with pockets deep enough to go up against their lawyers (which means nobody, unless Donald Trump could be interested in this issue).

I'm sure our discussion may have annoyed readers who are in love with the Chinese replicas. I have already confessed to purchasing several dozen (but that spare display case is filled, and now no more!) in a "know thine enemy" spirit, or maybe the morbid curiosity that makes it hard not to glance at a traffic accident.

The bottom line is anyone can and should collect what they like. But the Chinese replicas will always bear the same relationship to real Dinky Toys that seeing a prostitute does to love and marriage. Fleeting pleasure, but ultimately meaningless.

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Moderator - there seems to be a lot of references to 'whoring', 'prostitutes', morality and the like and I wonder just where the Dinky Toys Collectors Association is going?

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It's those degenerate Californians. Even worse than the French.

B)

P.S. To show you how early the rot began, my love of Dinky Toys began in 1959 when I was a tot living in a Chicago suburb: I noticed that the local taxi company used Plymouths in two-tone blue, of which the #178 Plymouth Plaza made a superb replica once my mother had created a sign to glue to its roof. On another of our mother-son walks, this time on State Street downtown, I spied a mobile billboard advertising a burlesque show. It consisted of a slowly-driving truck fitted with picture windows at the back, behind which stood two or three scantily-clad women. I cannot even find a Google image to prove that such a thing existed, but it did -- and as family legend has it, I threw a tantrum, demanding "I want a Dinky of that!" My mum did not, however, find me any bathing beauties to glue to my Guy Warrior flat truck, another early acquisition!

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This mobile brothel was impounded in Miami; not aware of any models of it.

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Ah, but the vehicle I saw in Chicago had clear windows to show off the dancers, whereas this one has darkened ones to hide the sordid business within ... forging Dinky Toys, no doubt!!

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Back to Chinese junk.

 

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This is the latest Atlas issue (clic on the picture to see it in full length) The original Dinky Supertoys is my favorite Dinky. As many Atlas products, this is a poor reproduction with several errors.

This is a copy of the first issue of the Meccano model with smooth cab ceiling, straight end of the chassis members; ridged front hubs and see through trailer beam.

 

 

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This is the latest Atlas issue (clic on the picture to see it in full length) The original Dinky Supertoys is my favorite Dinky. As many Atlas products, this is a poor reproduction with several errors.

This is a copy of the first issue of the Meccano model with smooth cab ceiling, straight end of the chassis members; ridged front hubs and see through trailer beam.

 

 

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Any one, please delete the previous three messages and let me know when this site works.

Thanks

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As noted earlier in this thread, I have an ambivalent view of the Chinese replicas, but I prefer the Dan Toys because they do not (ab)use the Dinky name.

I must confess I found the latest issue of seven Guy vans impossible to resist, since at this stage I would never able to have all the real ones in my collection. They exhibit the same smoothed-off nature that many of the other Chinese copies do, there are a couple of odd moulding lines on the rear doors, and they are detectably lighter than the real Dinky Toys -- but overall not bad.

 

 

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I agree that it is nice of them not to use the Dinky Toys name. eBay is now flooded with Atlas versions, many disclosed properly, others not so much. My worry is that over time, the fine line separating Atlas from the real thing will tend to disappear, and any new collectors will gravitate towards the much less expensive copies, leaving a shell of older collectors to maintain the orignal Dinky collecting. I have also been tempted to fill in a few missing pieces in my own Dinky collection, but have decided not too. I did get one of them to see for myself what they are about. Jan Werner echoed my own sentiments when he said thay looked "too perfect" compared to vintage mint Dinky's, that something was lost in the process to try and perfect them. It is hard to deny that they have created interest in model collecting.....that part is good. Should they be co-mingled here on this site, as Dinky related? I think most oldtime, purist collectors will think not.
Regards, Terry

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