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Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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-Auction Catalogue Descriptions

Do members think that missing tabs from tinplate tanks that retain the tank to the diecast body for Dinky Supertoys Foden and Leyland tankers be included in an auction description? In my opinion, missing tabs could indicate that something has been carried out with the model and this would not come under the definition of normal wear and tear, such as chipping. Would a description of "good plus" be satisfactory or should the cataloguer mention the problem with the tabs??

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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If there is a problem with missing tabs that SHOULD be mentioned - it is so obviously not general wear and tear.

Welcome to the forum, it is a friendly place and we are getting more an more people on it.

THE MORE THE MERRIER!!

Dave

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Besides the missing tabs I presume a bigger issue to be mentioned is that apparently the tank is loose now OR glued on (how is it mounted then?).
Apart from that it remains a mystery: I cannot imagine how all tabs would be missing after one action of bending and rebending them for replacement of the tank. Isn't there any paint damage on the spots of the tabs gone? And: is the tank a version (colour / livery) that does not usually match the cab/chassis unit or represents a very rare combination/mix?
Anyway, important enough to be explicitly mentioned in the description of the model auctioned! 'Good plus' is not enough just to register this 'imperfection'. Kind regards, Jan

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Hello Dave and Jan
Many thanks for your valued comments. Wrote to Harry T about this some time back but never heard anything further. Where the tabs were is some sort of glue which holds the tank very tightly. I brought it to the attention of the auction house but they stand by their cataloguer. One thing though, the cataloguer states "that the grading of Good shows the item will have had more use, showing obvious imperfections." However, the grading of this model according to the description in both the printed and online catalogues refers to the model's condition as being Good to Good Plus. That I think equates to an implausible explanation provided by the "specialist" that is simply incorrect. A pity he had not read the description he wrote before offering his advice to the administration department of the auction house. I referred it to VW the general manager whom I met in 2012, bringing all the facts to her attention, but she stands by her staff. I have been a client of this auction house since 1994, and I am astounded with my treatment, having spent well over AUD$150,000 though this company. I would have settled for a payment equal to the cost of postage to return the model and its box. One wonders what has happened! I have had a real problem with the company a couple of years ago when the specialist did not recognise my Terex with a Euclid base. He also failed to recognise my rare Hudson in light blue with stone roof, combining it with three other models and gave a value of 45 pounds. Fortunately the lot did not sell, I was able to have the company agree to me re-writing the description with the Hudson as a separate lot, and it eventually sold for 240 pounds!
My first encounter with NL the "specialist" was when I saw an obvious error with a lot containing a 660 with windows and detachable trailer in a yellow lidded box with the description stating the model was in the correct box! NL wrote to me through one of the clerks stating the box was the last issue and therefore the model was in the correct box. I could not believe his stupidity. I then embarked on an exercise of checking through numerous auctions over the past few years and the number of errors was astounding. The company should not be employing someone who obviously does not know anything about Dinky Toys.
Lastly, it is a welcome relief to read that some folk agree that broken tabs are not a sign of normal wear and tear.
Thanks guys!!
Bruce from Down Under!!

starni999
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Hi Bruce,
I certainly wouldn't be happy to get that Tanker after seeing it described as good. Question is what was the tank removed for? Is it even the original tank? More worrying is how easy a very rare variation like the two tone blue Mk2 Tanker can be made using a Mk1 Blue tank fitted to a Mk2 Blue / Orange flat tail chassis, even the light blue hubs are correct, the only way to tell it's not for real is the damaged tabs underneath. I know because a few years ago I used two heavily playworn examples to make myself one. After a few weeks I put them back as they were, and only broke one tab in the process, so to break 4 tabs shows some serious heavy handed work, or that that tank has been on and off a few times.
Chris Warr.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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Thanks Chris for your most valued comments. With the catalogue description of GOOD TO GOOD PLUS it is unbelievable that the auction house has stood its ground in refusing to take the model back, or offer some sort of financial compensation. The sad part about it is the auction house is a well known, extremely large company in the north of England that goes under the name of "Collectable Toy Specialists" - a company that is very close to the DTCA. Even my loyalty going back to its earlier days when I won my first auction lot in 1993, 21 years ago was never taken into consideration.
Thanks again Chris, and to all those members who have supported me through this difficult process, made more difficult by the long distance between Australia and the UK.
Bruce Hoy

Dinkinius's picture
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Greetings all

How does the readership think of the following lot in the 25 November 2014 sale at Vectis:


Photo courtesy of Vectis Auctions

And now read the lot's description:

Dinky No.511 Guy (1st type) Lorry finished in fawn cab, red chassis and ridged hubs with black smooth tyres, green back,toe hook - Good (back has been swapped at some time) in a Fair buff lift off lid box (paper label has been removed) and No.521 Bedford Articulated Lorry - green cab and ridged hubs with black smooth tyres, red and black trailer with ridged hubs and black treaded tyres,toe hook - Good (does have some repainting in places) in a Good Plus buff lift off lid box with paper label. (2)

Apart from someone's toe coming into the equation, (the same "toe" also appears in several other lots in the same auction) but the "some repainting in places" is a little rich.

The manner whereby the 521 has been photographed also hides the colour of the wheels unfortunately.

The lot description does mention the Guy's back, but what about the Bedford's cab-chassis?

Kind regards

Bruce

starni999
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DTCA MemberUK

Just me but, axle ends too bright on the Bedford?
Guy just looks wrong in that colour combo?
CW.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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STARNI999 wrote:
"Just me but, axle ends too bright on the Bedford?
Guy just looks wrong in that colour combo?
CW."

Chris
Sorry I was still in the middle of posting this topic!! The problem with this website is its inability to include pictures as well as other material that has to be posted first before editing can take place!!
There - my editing has been completed, but thanks for your prompt response!
Bruce

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I was puzzled and astonished seeing this picture with the Bedford Articulated Lorry on the Vectis site. Whether it's a miracle or a fake, this should have been very explicitly mentioned!
Kind regards, Jan

Dinkinius's picture
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Greetings! Here are yet further "classic" auction lots.

To begin with, it is a good thing those participating knew what the model was and not what the cataloguer thought it was!!

South African Dinky No.176 Austin A105 Saloon - cream body, mid-blue roof, side flash, cream ridged hubs with white knobbly tyres - minor rubbing to roof, slight staining to tyres otherwise Near Mint in Fair card box, tape repairs to one end.
Estimate:

buzzer999's picture
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The buyer beware situation has never been more pertinent.

I had a longish meeting with Hugo Marsh the other day and he mentioned he was disappointed with a few thing but didn't elaborate.

Dave

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This went under the hammer at Boningtons Auctioneers today:

Either it is a repaint or I have missed a very rare colour - it was not listed as a repaint in their description.

I bought a Guy Van Lyons from Boningtons earlier this year and it turned out to be a repaint. They refunded my money in full without question but I am now very wary of them.

Dave

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David,

At least the wheels have been overpainted as the end of the axles are painted. The only Dinky known with painted axle ends is the 692 medium gun.

Dinkinius's picture
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buzzer999 wrote:
"This went under the hammer at Boningtons Auctioneers today:

Either it is a repaint or I have missed a very rare colour - it was not listed as a repaint in their description.

I bought a Guy Van Lyons from Boningtons earlier this year and it turned out to be a repaint. They refunded my money in full without question but I am now very wary of them.

Dave"

Dave

The 281 was originally maroon with cream side flash and red wheels. Nothing in the "description" that stated it was a repaint. Bad.

The auction house's descriptions were woeful, so perhaps the word "descriptions" should be just "words"! I was online and noticed some items went quite cheaply. Not sure about the Porsche 182 as I think it went too cheaply at  £ . . . .

This Post lost most of its content during the transfer process with the Post being "terminated after "as I think it went too cheaply at  £. "

 Although I have a copy of the original Post including all the missing sections I have decided that it is unnecessary to insert the missing parts due to some of my comments that may be considered inappropriate at this time.  (In case anyone is the slightest bit interested, the near mint and boxed red 182 Porsche 356A with cast silver hubs sold for £70.00.)  And yes, it was an excellent buy.

Bruce

20160407/1328/2306

Dinkinius's picture
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Post 11 above is incomplete, having suffered from something before or during the transfer process to the new website.

The following is that Post in its entirety and is being re-posted as there is a message in it for everyone, us as collectors, and those who operate and manage traditional auction houses.

Greetings! Here are yet further "classic" auction lots.

To begin with, it is a good thing those participating knew what the model was and not what the cataloguer thought it was!!

South African Dinky No.176 Austin A105 Saloon - cream body, mid-blue roof, side flash, cream ridged hubs with white knobbly tyres - minor rubbing to roof, slight staining to tyres otherwise Near Mint in Fair card box, tape repairs to one end. Estimate: £70 - £90 Sold for: £110

And then we have this one from the same major auction house:

Dinky No.175 Hillman Minx Saloon grey body, blue upper body and ridged hubs - rare issue without blue finish to lower windscreen - see photo - Mint in Near Mint yellow carded picture box with correct colour spot (very minor pencil price mark to end flap). Estimate: £100 - £120 Sold for: £260

This model is a normal issue, admittedly in less numbers than the version with the upper colour across the front of the windscreen, but nonetheless the model is not a rare issue, and the auction house has enhanced the description that resulted in a totally unrealistic, unethical and possibly illegal final price of £260.

As with anything these days, eBay, traditional auction houses (even those once trusted), swap meets, let the buyer beware!!

Bruce   (150)

27 February 2016

#802

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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Here is my recent acquisition from an auction house in Somerset, at a cost o£80! (Yes I know there is a slight quality control problem with mine, but still the model and box was a far better deal.

There are those famous words about let the buyer beware!

But it does pay to shop around and not stick to one or two auction houses. Of course, we in Australia are not blessed with the multitude of swap meets that operate in the UK, so we have to depend on auctions.

Bruce

 

(150)20160308/829/1615

Dinkinius's picture
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As indicated elsewhere throughout this website, when bidding online with any auction, be they through a traditional auction house  or eBay, the rule is “Let the buyer beware”!  Having said that, I did not follow that rule and threw caution to the wind when bidding online with a traditional auction house in Norfolk!

The first image below is for a lot containing a 905 Foden Flat Truck with Chains in red and grey.  This was the description: DINKY SUPERTOYS 905 FODEN FLAT TRUCK WITH CHAINS- BOXED

No indication as to its condition! 

And the last two images show the model that arrived after I had given it a nice, careful clean!  It was far better than expected.

I love the dedication on the top lid of the box! “Peter from Uncle George and Mrs Bassett”.  I wonder who Mrs Bassett was if she was not an aunt?!!

Incidentally, the Quality Inspection stamp reads 1 60 FP, January 1960, with the price on the box being 9/6, a price current between May 1959 and January 1961.

Bruce

(150)20160307/827/1734

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Bruce--It appears that throwing caution to the wind is sometimes the best course of action! That seems to be in quite nice condition and a nice color rendition.
Best regards, Terry

Dinkinius's picture
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Terry - you are quite correct with throwing caution to the wind, otherwise I would have missed out on this great model even with its minor chipping!  The box in particular is very nice and shows minimal wear. And of course as I mentioned in my first Post, I think inscriptions written by the giver of the 905 makes it a very personal model and box.

The colour is interesting. With this version being the last of the line, it is interesting that Meccano chose not to add a second colour scheme as a possible selling point. All the earlier 505/905 had two colour schemes. Which sort of makes the inscription on the box's side panel rather superfluous!

Kind regards

Bruce

(150)20160308/828/1550

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Hi Bruce, this late red/grey version was not the only one to show up in this later box. There is also the (scarcer) blue/grey one, so the colour could really be different from the illustration, as warned for on the box.

A more serious matter regarding auction problems now. Some time ago I bought this Singapore Flying Boat at an auction of a very familiar auction house, won by an electronic absentee bid. The description was as follows:

Dinky 60h Singapore Flying Boat - silver, red plastic roller - overall condition is generally Good Plus to Excellent, bright example in a Good Plus blue lift off lid box.

My bid, and the maximum I set, was based on this promising description. On arrival it was obvious immediately that the tail part was broken off some time and apparently (badly) repaired after that. I was completely astonished that such a very obvious and fundamental damage and repair to the casting was not included in the description. Very disappointed and rather angry I contacted the auction house immediately with my complaint about the bad description, pointing at the fact that I would never have bid at all if I had known of this fundamental deficiency. Apparently  they realized at once that they were wrong and I was offered a full refund after having returned the model, or a 40% discount if I still wanted to keep the model. In order to avoid all kinds of possible administrative, financial or physical trouble with returning the model, I chose for the second option and kept the model. Although they have solved the problem in a very reasonable and polite way I keep on being completely astonished about overlooking such a serious problem with the casting of a model of this kind.

Some photos attached, showing the ugly and obvious repair and finally my attempt to repair the repair (and the blue/grey chain lorry). Kind regards, Jan 

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Jan

You are absolutely correct with the blue and grey version, and I will be responding to your comments in the 905 Topic!  I simply had a senior’s moment with my last Post above! It is no wonder some folk do not take me very seriously these days judging on some of my recent Posts!!

But to the discussion in hand. I have seen the description and photograph in the auction for Lot 485, and I quite agree with you that there was absolutely no care taken by the individual who catalogued this model and its box.  To the contrary, there appears to have been some care taken in how the model was photographed which made it difficult for anyone to see this obvious flaw.

However, one thing to the credit of the auction house is the fact that they instantly recognised what had happened and responded immediately by offering you a full refund on the return of the model or a 40% discount should you decide to keep the model. It is marvellous seeing the recognition of their mistake.

What a pity the same auction house never did the same for me with that Mobilgas Tanker that was the start of this Topic!  I was advised it was my fault for not having asked a question about the tabs to start with and I was also told the description of “good” matched the condition of the model. (Except the description was in fact “good TO GOOD PLUS”.)  In essence I was advised to just accept the Foden and move on! I guess my treatment matched the distance between Australia and the north of England with no consideration whatsoever to my 20+ years of loyalty to the firm!

But it is nice to see that you were treated in a fair, reasonable and responsible manner. That Company has in recent years become a victim of ignorance insofar as staff employed with their woeful knowledge of Dinky Toys as well as their descriptions of lots. Instead of concentrating on unseen defects, they seem obsessed with the obvious that can be seen in the photograph accompanying the auction. Not to mention the often used phrase, “still a bright example”!

Kind regards

Bruce

(150)20160309/830/1923

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Jan--That is just shocking, what happened to you. It is almost unbelievable that any competent auction house would not properly or adequately disclose the condition of a vintage model such as you purchased. Some of the eBay sellers are very careful to point out any faults, no matter how tiny, while others like to use that "nearly mint" phrase for almost anything. To me, there is no substitute for lots of high resolution, closeup photographs, showing clearly all areas. Hopefully, your skillful repair efforts will yield a nice display piece!
Best regards, Terry

CaddyEldorado
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Whenever I have had cause for dispute with Vectis I have always found them to be very helpful and fair, never more so than on an occasion last year when I went to sell a model on Ebay that I had previously bought from Vectis. It was a 24J Alfa Romeo and upon close examination the box looked suspiciously like a copy which I hadn't noticed when I had received it from them back in 2005.

It was quite convincing, but fortunately I also had a genuine example and I was able to determine the typeface on the repro box was subtly different. Even more fortunate was the fact that the sale photograph was still on the Vectis archive which clearly showed the incorrect typeface.

To their credit Vectis gave me a full refund, a full 10 years after the event, without hesitation. I accept I had incontrovertible evidence but I suspect many companies would have simply said the event was too far back in the past.

Best wishes, Mark

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Mark, I like the positive contents of your message. Except for my deep astonishment about the inaccuracy and inattention, mine was meant to be positive too, as I really appreciated the polite, understanding and efficient settlement of the problem. In fact they did the offer for refunding even before I was able to send the photos above already. Kind regards, Jan 

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Jan

Your post did come across positively! I think having had my fingers burnt on a couple of occasions with other auction houses (Astons in Birmingham springs to mind), I am always so grateful to Vectis when they show an understanding attitude, despite the cataloguing mistakes they might make.

On a slightly different note, my problem in the recent past has been the development of services like saleroom.com. They undoubtedly open up a whole new opportunity for collectors, but it is all too tempting to bid without having done sufficient homework; few auction houses of course offer more than the simplest of descriptions and it therefore requires effort on the buyer's part to establish condition. I have been caught out on more than one occasion. I think I've finally learnt my lesson!

Kind regards

Mark

 

 

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Dinkinius
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Mark

A little belatedly, but thank you for your response in Post #24 although I must confess I find it somewhat incredulous that a company would take back an item that had been purchased 10 years previously without so much as a whimper.

I also am extremely envious as to how you and Jan were treated so differently from my complaint which is almost as if, dare should I repeat it, that matched the distance between Australia and the north of England with no consideration whatsoever to my 20+ years as a loyal client!  In that time I have won 361 lots from that Company totalling over 1200 models, Dinky, Corgi, Hornby and Hornby-Dublo. But it has only been in the past 8 years or so when lot descriptions started falling off the rails which coincidentally or not matched the arrival of at least one member of staff.

When you later wrote “few auction houses of course offer more than the simplest of descriptions and it therefore requires effort on the buyer's part to establish condition”, is a valid point, and may very well be aimed at me for not enquiring the condition of the 905 and in particular whether the tank tabs, the start of this topic, were intact or not, however that does not excuse an auction house that does bother to provide a description but fails to include any defects that should be brought to light.

Giving Vectis due credit, (and it is interesting that you latched onto Vectis as the auction house, when neither Jan or I mentioned their name with our problem lots) I did have two previous occasions when I received what was not purported to be and they acted in a fair and responsible manner, although not to the degree offered to Jan.

The first occasion when a 551 box actually contained a 150 model, I returned the lot which also included a French Dinky 596, but by the time all costs were added up, a rather large difference with the exchange rate (Pounds Sterling to Australian Dollars) from when I originally paid for the lot and when it was refunded plus the conversion fees both times plus postage cost that had been incorporated in the original invoice, I actually lost more than ₤40 on the deal simply because someone was too lazy to either remove the model from its box to examine it, or did not bother to turn it over and check its base plate.

The second occasion, was an empty box for a promotional Triumph 2000 which by the time I received it, was missing its little colour identity  label on the front. I was only offered a refund when the box was returned; nothing like Jan when a percentage discount was offered should I choose to keep it. With just the one option I decided to keep the box as one can still see the residue where the label once was so it will have to do. I was also not about to lose more money on the deal.

However, the problems I have encountered have not been limited to buying.  I have also sold quite a few models and on two occasions it was due to sheer incompetency that one lot, a light blue and stone Hudson Commodore was completely unrecognised by the cataloguer as being a rare model but I was able to withdraw the lot. To ensure accuracy I re-wrote the description on behalf of Vectis and it later sold slightly above its true value. The intervention of the seller should have been unnecessary had the staff member responsible at the time been more diligent in the execution of his duties.

Unfortunately, I was not so lucky with my very rare, first issue, near mint and boxed 965 Terex with a Euclid base plate. The first attempt by the cataloguer to describe this model was a disaster. He referred to it, as he has done so with most previous Terex models, as a 965 Euclid Rear Dump Truck “Terex”, blissfully ignorant of the fact that the model is referred to as a 965 Terex Rear Dump Truck packaged in its appropriate box for the time, a box still worded for the Euclid. Due to its incredibly inept description, sold for only ₤100 – considerably less than its true value. Good luck to the buyer who scored a real bargain!

On the other side of the coin, I received on my birthday in 2012 a near mint and boxed 1st Series 501 Foden 8-Wheel Diesel Wagon whose woeful description enabled me to buy it quite cheaply. The description mentioned the model being repainted – it is nothing of the sort – only the initials of its original owner written on the base in some sort of felt pen being a possible detrimental addition, although for me it was and still is inconsequential.

So badly written descriptions can be very helpful – me as a buyer, but most certainly not for the seller!

Wouldn’t it be marvellous to see more care taken in providing better and more accurate descriptions, including items unseen in the photograph such as packing pieces etc, better photography, more knowledge of the subject, and most importantly, greater care on behalf of the consumer, especially from “The World’s Largest Toy Auction House”. It would in fact be a win-win situation for all concerned – buyer, seller and the auction house. In Australia we have a Federal Government authority, the Australian Competition and Consumers Commission. The ACCC promotes competition and fair trade in markets to benefit consumers, businesses, and the community. It also regulates national infrastructure services with its  primary responsibility is to ensure that individuals and businesses comply with Australian competition, fair trading, and consumer protection laws - in particular the Competition and Consumer Act 2010. I am not sure if the UK has a similar organisation that looks after the interests of consumers, if not, then perhaps something should be done to correct this anomaly.

That is the sort of positive reaction we all should have.

And finally, the remaining unanswered question: Why was I not treated by Vectis in the same, gentlemanly and professional manner as both you and Jan?  I wrote four times, pleading my case and any thought of a return or partial refund was never offered.

Bruce

For those interested, the following links take you to the models in question:

http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=350145 ; http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=376419

http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=503664 ; http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=475385

(150)20160318/837/2223

buzzer999's picture
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On the topic of auction descriptions I have just seen this from Milestone Auctions in the USA.

I was not aware of any Fodens being made in France, or have I missed something????

Dave

 

 

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janwerner
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Apparently the only one. Very rare indeed!wink

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Dinkinius
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Greetings All

The subject of my Post does not really fall within the definition of this topic "Auction Catalogue Descriptions", but it is considered to be appropriate despite it being an auction on eBay.

For those who are endeavouring to obtain a good quality 697 25-Pounder Field Gun Set, may I suggest that you ignore the set currently on eBay, Item Number 121693421390.  Here is an image of the set.

To be noted, the Tractor unit has plastic hubs so too the 25-Pounder Field Gun, neither of which as well as the trailer were never packaged in the lidded box, only in the end flap pictorial box, which was rather flimsy and many sets never survived the time as a toy. The seller lives in the UK, and I had thoughts of writing to him/her through eBay but decided against it as I would probably be wasting my time.

By the way, there is a better boxed set currently on eBay at a cheaper price too!

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

20172507/1145/1800

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Dinkinius
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The following is an edited copy of my Post #797 dated 1 August 2017 submitted in the NEW ARRIVALS topic. It is included within this Topic as its contents are relevant to the subject:

All these Posts refer to my acquisition through an auction conducted by Island Auction Rooms, 79 Regent Street, Shanklin, Isle of Wight, of a 25x Breakdown Lorry, trade box with four examples. I am including additional images of the counterfeit trade box as well as changed some of the original text. I have also highlighted some sections not previously included, and these paragraphs can be found towards the end of this Post. I urge readers to carefully note my added comments.

Unfortunately, this "trade box" is not what it purports to be, but is in fact a forgery, cleverly executed (which is what should happen to the individual who submitted this Lot), and I immediately wrote to several members of the DTCA seeking their views which has caused me considerable embarrassment. Incidentally, bidding was extremely brisk with the sum achieved being unbelievably high, an indication of the deep interest this "trade box" received. I was the unfortunate "lucky" highest bidder.

Since receiving the "25x trade box", I have pondered for several months whether to publish these details on this website or leave it rest as there has not been any enquiries through the DTCA with this "25X Trade Box", foregoing any embarrassment that it is in the interest of members and others who collect Dinky Toys to be extremely cautious with anything being passed off as a "trade box" for a 25x Breakdown Lorry.

The following are images that caught my attention once I carefully examined the box and its contents, on realising that the Breakdown Lorries did not fit in the box, except on their sides with no room for a cardboard divider.

The following image, not included in the "New Arrivals" Topic showing the models sitting upright. Obviously the models are too high for the box:

Another image not previously included, is of the models themselves; only one the first one in a darker shade is an example most likely of an early issue showing the recessed opening for a never utilised crank, with its tyres being smooth, the remaining three are later issues with the winding handle in the chassis being blanked out and with treaded tyres.

The end labels are in fact two separate labels joined together, the join being faintly seen, with the join being noticeable with the following image in particular the solid line at the top does not match with the join:

One of the end "label" was starting to peel off, so I proceeded to hasten its removal - that revealed the box was actually for a 29c Double Deck Bus:

The above image is of the other end label.

The Inspection Stamp on the base of the box was also a dead giveaway:

The quality inspection date stamp GW  453  (April 1953) does not relate to a period when the 25X would have been packaged in a trade box.

The price of a 29c Double Deck Bus in April 1953 was 4/1. This matches the inspection date of April 1953. This is also the price written on the lid of 4/1. The price had decreased from 4/3 in February 1953 to 4/1 on on 15 April 1953. Therefore this box could not have been issued by Meccano in Liverpool as it was only the dealer who would have written the price on the box.

I immediately brought this forgery to the attention of the company handling the sale, Island Auction Rooms based on the Isle of Wight with the following part of my email:

On seeking advice from a number of highly respected Dinky Toys collectors, the conclusion reached is that this box has been carefully doctored as a counterfeit/forgery which has unfortunately deceived not only your staff but all those who lodged bids in good faith.

Someone has gone to extraordinary lengths to bring about this deception. Someone who knew the 25x came in a trade box for 4, as well as the factory Code Number at the top of the label, 50039 where usually the name DINKY TOYS appears. Was this Trade Box created by a collector whose only interest was for his own purposes who has since passed away taking with him an explanation. Whatever the reason, a vendor has lodged with your company an item that misrepresents a true 25x Breakdown Lorry Trade box.

I am attaching photographic copies of the box and its contents that provides pictorial evidence of this fraudulent item.

I respectfully request that you carefully consider the above, take this matter up immediately with the vendor, and arrange a full refund of my bid amount plus ancillary charges. Naturally the box and contents will be returned at your cost.

This was Island Auction Rooms reply, no name or signature:

sadly we are outside our terms and conditions to make a refund as the vendor has been paid out. I understand we have both been hoodwinked and indeed the vendor had no idea either. As a good will gesture we could offer a refund of £120 and you retain the goods, this is our best and final offer.

My reaction is not fit to be printed, and on approaching several very good friends in the UK, one responded who owns an auction company: If one is being cynical, in this case the person at Island Auction Rooms may have reckoned that since ***** is in a separate legal jurisdiction, there is nothing he can do about it. I have made plenty of mistakes in my time, but I try to sort them out and be reasonable. I think when this person says they are outside their Ts and Cs, they mean that they can’t get the money back from the vendor? When we have similar situations here (although not selling such an obvious fake I hope) we pay up the capital sum – the full amount – and if the auction is closed I have chosen to refund out of my own pocket sometimes. I don’t want to talk ill of others but I think this stinks and the ignorance of both vendor and auction house is no proper defence, they should pay up in full.

I was then provided with advice with whom I should refer this matter, but as this could become quite protracted, and of course, legal costs have to be weighed, I decided to accept the unreasonable offer and of course carefully note never do business again with Island Auction Rooms.

However, I am not finished with this saga, and am currently exploring the matter through a very good friend in the UK that the current "Auction Bidding Act 1927" is woefully outdated and considering the electronic age in which we exist today, more protection has to be provided by those bidding in absence, through telephone, postal, or internet means with this Act being brought up to the 21st Century.

I wonder if this was the box that initiated its presence in Ramsay's British Diecast Model Toys Catalogue, in which case, the publishers should be notified and have the entry removed, as such a trade box has never existed, except as a forgery, unless an indisputable, original and authenticated box comes to light, which I think never will.

Incidentally, prior to the auction I requested additional photographs, and all I received were identical to those in the auction with two additional ones that were practically useless. I decided to see how the auction progressed with this lot, and initially bidding was very brisk, which indicated to me that some may have been present at the auction, and as the amount increased, I finally joined in, much to my later regret!

Finally, I will in time be posting a copy of this Post in the Topic 25X - 430 BREAKDOWN LORRY Topic. My closing remarks in my Post #797 are still relevant but I am not repeating them here. If any other member has had a painful experience with an auction house, or has documentary evidence showing the failure of an auction house to disclose matters of concern, may I suggest that you post your concerns in this Topic, to enable me to pass the details to my associate in the UK. In time, members will become aware of the process within an unexpected source.

Kind regards to you all

Bruce H.   (150)

20170208/1149/0135