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dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

--23c Mercedes-Benz Racing Car (1936-50)

Like most of the English Dinky Toys, the Mercedes W 25 has had several variations :

On 8 02 1940 The words MERCEDES BENZ have been added to the drawing. Has the base plate been engraved and issued before the war or only in 1945 when the model was re-issued with riveted base plate instead of the four crimping points ? Is a picture of a 1940 issue available ?

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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DTCA MemberUSA

Sorry Jacques, I only have 2 postwar versions; hopefully someone will come forward.
Terry

Bungo's picture
Bungo
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DTCA Member

Hi Jacques,

I think there never was a version with clipped-in baseplate and MERCEDES BENZ engraved. When 23c was re-issued after the war, the length of the crank-case pressed into the baseplate was shortened to allow for the riveting in front, at the same time MERCEDES BENZ was added. The pre-war baseplate always remained the same, except for the 4 positioning points introduced later in 1936. This is my current knowledge.

Still in Switzerland
Walter

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janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

I have four Mercedes Benz / Large Open Racing Cars.
Of two of them I have photos of the base plate quickly available:

The earliest 1936 version.

The latest post-war version, ca. 1950-1952.

Kind regards, Jan

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Thank you Walter (still in Schweiz) and Jan (still in the Netherlands) for your answers. I thought that the models with crimped base plate and marked MERCEDES BENZ hd not been made but I wanted some confirmation.

Jacques.

john45
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Jacques and Jan,

Pre war there is a second type baseplate.
Were the first type is just pressed into the body, the second has four kind of rivets in the casting and when pressed holds the baseplate.
In fact all the pre war racers, Auto Union, Mercedes and Speed of the Wind had these two types of baseplates.
Problem with the first type is that the baseplate can easy fall out of the body. Now after many years a lot are fatigue and have lost the baseplates.
The baseplates of the Mercedes benz pre war always were painted in the same colour as the body. Same with the baseplates of Speed of the Wind.
Colours found pre war: blue, green, red, yellow and silver.
Racenumbers from 1 to 8 I have seen.
The models came in tradeboxes of six.

John.

john45
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Here a picture of the second type baseplate.

John.

john45
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Forgot that the Forum does not allow large high definition pictures.
Sorry for this. Now with the correct seize.
Second type pre war baseplate.

John.

john45
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

The two baseplates on the Mercedes Benz racing car.
Note that the second type is rounded at the end. The body has altered to provide the baseplate bending inside. Still no name stamped.
Top is first baseplate.

John

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Thanks for the previous additions, John!

Hi all, some additions in text and images, relating to the Mercedes Benz / Large Open Racing Car.

The Mercedes is presented in colour on the covers of (i.a.?) the 1939 Dinky Toys catalogue and the US 4 page leaflet of 1947/48.

However, I wonder/doubt if the racing number

Bungo's picture
Bungo
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DTCA Member

Sorry, John, but the pre-war Auto Union and the pre-war Speed of the Wind had only one type of baseplate, the one without the 4 positioning points. Only the Mercedes had these. After the war, all three had riveted baseplates.
Regards
Walter

john45
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Walter,
Of course you are right, slip of the pen!
Here the two type baseplates of the Speed of the Wind.

John.

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

To complete this topic 2 photos of my "new arrival"

The inscriptions on the base plate are to read from the front to the rear.

I don't explain the sand color traces !!?? Sun, acid ? 

Cheers

Richard

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Richard
The discolouration could have been caused by a chemical reaction by something on which the model has rested over a long period of time as shown by the sharp edge at the front. Just a possibility as I have seen something similar happen to a late 1950s Dinky Toy.
However that does not detract from your Mercedes being a beautiful example! Top marks to you.
Kind regards
Bruce
20160521/922/2026
(Still in China!)

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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DTCA MemberUSA

Richard---Lovely model and especially nice for pre-war. Have the tires been replaced at some time? I thought all pre-war and early post war had the herringbone style tires. Very nice acquistion!
Best regards, Terry

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

I like the soft shade of green very much. A wonderful good quality acquisition Richard. I agree with Terry that the tyres must have been replaced as only herringbone tread tyres, black or white, were in use in this pre-war era. I had a look at a similar model of mine, a first state example of 1936, which shows differences as the base plate is concerned and it lacks the competition number, compared with yours.  Kind regards, Jan 

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Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

Hi my friends.

Bruce, I am agree with you but it will always be a mystery !

Terry and Jan, you are probably right and I thought like you but, Jacques in his encyclopedia shows a blue model with racing number 4 and exactly the same tires !!

As my pre war version is the second type, it can be the last, produced just before the war with "new" different tires ...??!!

Best regards.

Richard

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Richard, in my opinion the (English) round treaded black 20 mm tyres covered the short time span of ca. 1950-1954 only. But this is a minor point compared with the magnificent new addition you have scored! Kind regards, Jan 

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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DTCA MemberUSA

Have not seen any closeup  photos of the blue version of the Mercedes Racing Car, so decided to post mine.  I bought this several years ago from Keith Harvey, and it appears to be a somewhat later post war issue as it has the ridged wheels.  Of course more correct in the silver color, but the blue does show nicely.

              Best regards,  Terry

Bungo's picture
Bungo
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DTCA Member

23c Mercedes Benz Racing Car, made from lead alloy

Lucky enough and against a rather large dent in my purse I was recently able to acquire this prewar 23c Mercedes Benz Racing Car. It is from the series with the 4 fixation points to help securing the clipped-in base plate. And: it is made from lead alloy, bringing 105 gr. to the scale instead of the average 70 gr. of a zink-alloy model!

The seller claims that "with this model the new fixation points for the base plate were probably tried. The use of lead thus probably contaminated the molds, which later led to the problems with metal fatigue in the use of zinc alloy. Therefore the versions with the fixation points are particularly affected today"

I wonder what comments I will receive on this!

And I miss Jacques, since he does not seem to be in a position to help.

Best regards from Thailand

Walter

 

 

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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DTCA MemberUSA

Walter---A stunning, beautiful pre-war model! It is always a treat to see any pre-war Dinky in such nice condition, with none of the pesky fatigue. What year do you think this was made? It would be interesting to more thoroughly know just when and where Meccano used lead.
Best regards, Terry

Bungo's picture
Bungo
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23c was announced in Meccano Magazin in May 1936 (no Racing numbers, clipped-in base plate, no fixation points). Soon, Racing numbers were applied, then, the 4 fixation points came.

The details of my model (racing numbers, fixation points) suggest a production date of late 1936/1937, I believe.

Regards
Walter

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

I received yesterday these two Mercedes 23c models.

I was very angry against me because I bought two identical models in the precipitancy !!! There were on sale on two different sites, almost at the same time and I absolutely wanted one !! So I did bid on both and ...... I got it , .... both !!! Stupid angry

BUT..... if you compare the models, you will see two differences smiley :

The race number "I" on one of the car is thinner than the other and the drivers colours are different : one is "caramel" and the other is in a lustreless brown colour !

So, I am happy laugh

Friendly yours.

Richard

 

Bungo's picture
Bungo
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DTCA Member

Hi Richard,

Congratulations.
Unfortunately, the pics are not too clear.
Ridged or smooth hubs?
Thin or thick axles?
Best regards
Walter

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

Hi Walter.

Ridged hubs and thin axles.

Best rgds

Richard

Bungo's picture
Bungo
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DTCA Member

Hi Richard,

Now this is strange!
Ridged hubs were always mounted on thick axles, both being postwar items. There were early postwar models with thick axles and smooth left-over prewar hubs, but I have never seen ridged postwar hubs on thin prewar axles.
I know it's difficult, but can you try to measure them?
Thin 1.6mm
Thick 2.0mm
Regards
Walter

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

Hi Walter.

Yes, it's difficult to measure the axels.

In fact, I think that they are thick because it's look like they measure 2mm

I join two photos.

Friendly yours

Richard

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

Here is a family photo with english and french Mercedes.

The french models are foreground.

Kind regards

Richard

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

A picture of the real one demonstrates that the wheels (+ tyres) of the 'regular' one are slightly too big and the metal wheels of the 1949 French version are far too small. Nice family, Richard! Kind regards Jan 

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

The english Mercedes team is growing .... slowly but surely !

Richard

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Richard, good to see your expanding Mercedes group! What is the difference of the two silver examples? My silver post-war examples below, showing black (early) and red (later, export?) hubs. Two funny group portraits as a bonus, also featuring my blue and pre-war yellow Mercedes versions. Kind regards, Jan 

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