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janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 00:56
--33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Unfortunately this nice single Simca Cargo is the only French van comparable with its British contemporaries like the multi- liveried Guy vans. It might have produced a comparable range of very attractive and collectable liveries.

Two basic versions with slightly different catalogue numbers were available, firstly the plain one, no. 33a, with a dark olive cab and yellow back (subsequently the lighter olive cab and orange back) of 1955-1956 and the attractive all yellow one, no. 33an, with white roof and advertising ‘Bailly’ removals of 1956-1961.

Now my questions below are about the boxes of these vans, as they seem to have been mixed frequently in practice.

This is the first version. 33a with yellow back, but contrary to Ramsay’s (11th, p. 235) not in box with yellow back model, but model shown with orange back.

This is the second 33a version with orange back, and in the box expected, correct number and correct colour. Both boxes have the name printed: Fourgon Simca ‘Cargo’.

Now I have got this second version 33a, but in a 33an box, so, the box for the removals van, the ‘Déménageur Simca Cargo’. But it has a yellow back and no adverstising, whereas the only 33an known is the all yellow one with ‘Bailly’ advertising. So both the number and model shown are wrong.

Thierry Redempt (in his ‘Utilitaires Dinky Toys & Dinky Supertoys’, Toulouse: Drivers, 2003. p. 137) shows a comparable anomaly: the first version with yellow back, but also in the later 33AN box, now with the right model picture, but with the new name ‘Déménageur Simca Cargo’.
In fact I see many or all genuine ‘Bailly’ vans come in this advertising-less box. The ‘Bailly’ which I showed above is an old childhood favourite of my brother, and we do not remember in which box it came.

My questions are:
1. Does a 33A box ‘Fourgon Simca ‘Cargo’’ with yellow back model picture really exist?
2. It does not seem very unusual to me that the early plain vans come in the ‘wrong’ 33AN ‘Déménageur Simca Cargo’ box. Apparently the factory simply ran out of the old boxes and packed the later batch of plain models in the new 33AN boxes. Do others of you have the same experience?
3. What happened later with the packing of the real 33AN ‘Bailly’ van? Was a new box version with the correct all yellow model with advertising picture on it produced? And what happened with the box after the 1959 renumbering into 577?

By the way, as an extra:

There are two basic casting differences for all versions of 33a and 33an (shown above). Look for the differences. They seem to have existed next to each other for all the production period. The hook, and its casting adaptation, appeared on the ‘Bailly’ only, in a later production stage.

Kind regards, Jan Werner


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Richard
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Joined: Mon, 07/06/2015 - 14:56

Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Dear Jan,
3 years later (I just read that topic !)some answers and informations :

1) Yes, it exist a box showing a Simca Cargo with a yellow back.
2) The "Bailly" never recieved its own box. Always packed in the box numbered "33 AN"
3) The box with "577" was never produced.

Here under, you will see 2 "Bailly" base plate showing the two casting differences + another one : the safety wheel fixations ! One is screwed and the other is riveted.
Also, the top of the back can be very "white" or "cream white"

Cheers


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janwerner
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Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 00:56

Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

As you may remember, I fortunately managed to find the correct, matching 33A box not much later. So I could then help my boxless Bailly (in fact my brother's) with the formerly incorrect 33AN box, which indeed matches the Bailly as it should!

Kind regards, Jan


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Joined: Mon, 07/06/2015 - 23:27

Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

I have both of these, but am out of the house this week, watching our 3 granddaughters at their house, while mom and dad are in Hawaii. When I get home I will check on just what I have in both models and boxes..........
Terry


starni999
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Joined: Thu, 07/09/2015 - 01:19

Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Wonderful models, I only have the green / orange as I have very few French models, it really is a pity there weren't more variations.
Chris Warr.


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Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 16:49

Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

As usual with most Dinky Toys there are several variations.

The pilot lot models or were they colour sample had yellow chassis-cab and hubs and green box van as shown on the 35mm Meccano advertissement films played in the cinemas around 1955.

The boxes were :
33a with yellow box van
33a with orange box van
33an with yellow box van

Is there a 33a box without drawings ?

The trade box (called an outer by Meccano) for three models of the Bailly is printed 33AN and the later ones have been marked 577 by a red rubber stamp. I have not yet seen a 33a outer.

On the yellow vans only (not on the orange), the rear door handles are bent down like on the Guy vans.

There were two different dies (unlikely a two cavities die) used during all the production period for all the different Cargo models : tipper, glazier. The position of the marking and the cab' foot steps are different for each die.

The pilot lot models were marked CARGO only without the SIMCA name. Meccano knew that there were talks between Ford s.a.f. designer and manufacturer of the Cargo and SIMCA to merge the two companies and waited until the deal was completed to add the new manufacturers name. The catalogue of 1954 announced the Cargo as a Ford truck but it was issued as a Simca in April 1955 ?

All the real Simca Cargo trucks had twin rear wheels but Meccano saved some money by fitting single wheels.

From late in 1956, the spare wheel boss has been raised when the tow hook was added.

Copies of the 33AN Bailly and 33c Glazier lorry have already been issued by Atlas, one can bet that the 33b tipper and 33a yellow van are not far away.


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Richard
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Joined: Mon, 07/06/2015 - 14:56

Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Dear jacques.
There is a third difference between the two dies : the front badge under the windscreen.
One small and one bigger as you can see on the following photo.

The next photo is to show the difference between two white shade.

At last, I have two Simca with orange vans and the rear doors handles are bent down !
I don't know if I will succeed making a photo, but I will try.
Cheers


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Richard
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Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo


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Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Yes Richard but this is not obvious. I am sure that if we took accurate measurements we would find more differences between the two castings.


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Richard
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Joined: Mon, 07/06/2015 - 14:56

Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

When you compare both badges, there is really a difference in the sizes.

For the handles I hope that the photo is good enough.


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Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Greetings Jan

It is amazing how one can occupy a wet afternoon!  Just found your "ancient" Post, and thought I would throw open the discussion again!

The photographs below are of my33a Simca-Cargo and 33an Simca Cargo. Both models were purchased from an auction house in Melbourne, Australia.  You will note the similarities with your models, however, my 33A has a yellow back. Both models do not have a tail hook.

Also of interest, the 33AN does not have a foot insert in front of the mudguard, but rather it has some sort of filler.

Of course, it is always possible the auctioneer has mixed up the models and boxes!

Kind regards

Bruce   (150) 

20160602/928/1702


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janwerner
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Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 00:56

Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Hello Bruce, very nice examples of this van you show. The yellow back is less common than the orange one in my opinion. But both are 33A. 33AN only goes for the Bailly Van (even though the 33AN box still shows a plain one). I presume with such beautiful models that the boxes were not mixed up lateron, but in the factory already - dependent on the shortage or abundance of correct stock of boxes available. That may also go for your 150 Rolls Royce in the 551 box. Below you will see an example of the French Muir Hill, no. 887. Everything points at a long time belonging to each other. Probably the French factory was short of stock of French 887 boxes and got hold of a batch of English boxes to be able to pack and distribute them. Of course this is an anomaly, but explicable and a nice evidence of how things went at Meccano's. Kind regards Jan  


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Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

I only have one version of the 33a Simca-Cargo fourgon, and I acquired it many years ago, but it is in wonderful condition.  As others have mentioned, it is a shame that the French Meccano operation did not make more versions of this van in different liveries, such as the Guy Vans.

I also am showing my 33an Bailly van.

    Best regards,  Terry

 


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Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Greetings Jan

On reading my original Post of eighteen or so months ago, and having just found the draft  of a reply I prepared for this Post  I have realised how dumb I was not to have specifically mentioned something about the 33A in the 33AN box.  I had previously read somewhere that the 33A was often packaged in a 33AN box as insufficient 33AN Bailly models had been produced and that it was perfectly normal to find the plain vans in either a 33A or 33AN box, so it is quite possible that neither of mine have been swapped. 

However, since I wrote my above Post on 2 June 2016, I was successful from the John Kinchen Collection of an unboxed Bailly van.  Although slightly chipped, I decided to bid on this model as no other examples were coming up on auction in a far better condition and one that I could afford with the express purpose of obtaining a Bailly model to occupy its correct 33AN box. 

Here is the dilemma – Having received the unboxed 33AN Bailly model I am now undecided as to the best course of action, leave it unboxed or put it in the 33AN box. At the moment and as mentioned in my Post #11 the 33AN box is occupied by a 33A with a yellow back in near mint condition, which you have advised is less common that the orange example

I await your esteem response!!

Kind regards

Bruce H.   (150)

20180104/1300/1174

 


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janwerner
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Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Hi Bruce, I think we should make the distinction between a 'correct' box and an 'authentic' box first. 

In my view an authentic box is the box in which a model is known to have been packed in since coming from shop stock (even if it's 'wrong' because for instance the factory ran out of correct boxes).

In my view a correct box is a box which complies with the model's colour scheme, age  and related catalogue reference number (even if it is not authentic).

The ideal is that a box is both authentic and correct. Hardest to prove is that a box is authentic. Easier it is to make plausible that a box is correct.

I am not certain that the 33AN box in which my 33A came when I bought it is authentic, but I am sure it is not correct. 

I am certain that the 33A box which I bought lateron separately for my 33A is not authentic, but it is correct.

I am certain that this 33AN box, which I swapped and deliberatly added much later to my boxless 33AN Bailly is not authentic to this very example, but I am sure it is correct.

You may leave things as they are now, and hope (if you cannot prove) that is the authentical situation. Or you may swap boxes and models to obtain the 'correct' situation. The dilemma remains with you, I'm afraid ... Kind regards, Jan  


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Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Jan.....That’s a great distinction to make about the boxes, and with Meccano almost always tending to sometimes mix things up a bit, by using older, leftover boxes, etc., it is important to keep this distinction in mind. It’s nice to have quite few originally purchased or gifted models, whereby one is assured that the box is authentic......and hopefully correct also!
Best regards, Terry


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Dinkinius
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Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Jan

I have taken a little longer to reply than originally intended, as I was interested in seeing discussions from more members instead of the single response that was provided on your comments. I also needed my response to take into consideration the English language and the need to be responsible in not offending you or anyone else. I originally had prepared a lengthy dissertation but following advice I have edited out most of that in case my message became lost in translation.

To begin with, unfortunately you were unable to address my question. Nor for that matter, could anyone else.  All I had asked is whether I should move a slightly chipped Bailly van into a box that clearly and unambiguously refers to the stock number for that model as evidenced by the following images from the 1958 French Meccano Catalogue, or leave its current occupant, a near mint plain 33A as the occupant of this box.  At least I "thought" it was a relatively simple question.

In reality as you were unable to answer my question there was no need for you to have responded in the manner you did unless you felt compelled to “correct” me in what I was endeavouring to do by your unique definitions of Meccano’s boxes. However as one member applauded your rather extraordinary definitions, I must confess I and another well-known Dinky Toys collector found your Post one of the most difficult and incomprehensible if not perplexing statement concerning boxes that we have read.

Modern-day usage of the word “authentic” means it is of undisputed origin, genuine and not a copy or reproduction, which in my mind has no relation to the discussion underway. Every box manufactured by or on behalf of Meccano – whether the box contained an error or two or apparently was used for several models does not diminish its genuine or authentic nature. When I wrote of a box being “correct” that means the box, for all intents and purposes, was manufactured to accommodate a particular model that was originally sold with the sales designation of 33 AN. Whether the same box was later used for a similar model by Meccano at the production end of the original intended model is immaterial.

Finally, I could not locate the word “boxless” in the Oxford Dictionary; I think you meant “unboxed”. As for authentical, I had also never heard this word used in modern English, until I found reference to it being used in the mid-16th century, but we are now well and truly past that era.

Oh, one last comment. I will not be doing anything with my Bailley Van - just leave it unboxed, as French Dinky Toys are really outside my field of interest anyhow.

Bruce H.  (150)

20180212/0007/1178

 


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janwerner
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Re : --33a Simca-Cargo fourgon + 33an Déménageur Simca Cargo

Hello Bruce, my comment was just a modest and friendly attempt to think along with you and help you.

I'm sorry it apparently did not. Kind regards, Jan