Photos of trade boxes backs showing reference numbers.

David T

With reference to your post # 90 above, the 50 100 number was also used twice, once for the 43b R.A.C. motorcycle patrol and once for the set of racing numbers transfers.

50 094 - 6676 Tyres 11/16"  and 40e Standard Vanguard

50 098 - 40 d Austin Devon and 42 a Police hut

50 099 - 42 b Police motorcycle patrol and 10 253 tyres 13/16"

Two items had two 50 xxx numbers :

1 - Station staff 50 168 and 50 250

2 - Farm yard animals 50 169 and 50 251

I hope that this answers your question.

Kind regards.

Jacques

I was surprized that I noticed the duplication but clearly more and already noticed, do you think this is a timing thing, it seems not on the face of it.

Will consult the 50 xx list on this site.

Also wondered if these trade boxes had been recorded. 

David

The list of trade boxes, how do we update that information?

I can see the duplicated numbers you refer and just wonder why.

Am really looking forward to seeing some of you guys at the fairs in the hopefuly near future.

David

A-ha, new numbers and I am the compiler of the pdf list.  Thanks, David, I'll look at getting it updated soon.   Code number discoveries are rarer now and I can only remember last year uncovered one - 25h Fire Engine  A2107

The 25h was a number missing as I have the privilage of having a full box, albeit filled it myself. Have in excess of 300 post war trade boxes and 60-70 prewar trade boxes and continuing to increase I hope.

Also managed to speak to David Cooke on the telephone who has asked me to send him by post my list of haves and havenots, so will be sending him that list soon.

He has many more than I but like me many duplicates and does the same by filling them with the different coliours that turn up.

Have found that the Ramseys list now requires up dating as there are many I have that are not listed.

Also, have wondered why "Type 1" is the only catagory for the prewar trade boxes when I think there should be at least four.

Yellow coloured

Salmon coloured

Beige coloured

Blue coloured

Also have noticed that some models, like the covered wagon has boxes that have models stored vertically and on there side as well as the colour diferences.

Have purchased but awaiting arrival is a trade box of 12d Telegraph Messenger's but on the picture it did not show any 50000, s number reference, will updated when received.

Do you think that is likely that there is a Trade box for each of the figures which would perhaps surgest that the intervining numbers represent the elusive boxes.

Bought some back numbers of the Journal via eBay and noticed David Cooks advert in the wanted section appealing for trade boxes, so might continue with his challenge and request via adverts.

David

David

My current assumption about pre war trade box versions is that Type 1 was just the same as the contemporary yellow Hornby Series trade boxes and the A in the A**** numbers indicates Accessory (trackside) for Hornby railways.  The first iterations of the type 1 boxes even say Hornby Series rather than Dinky Toys on the checker top and will have Modelled Miniatures rather than Dinky Toys on the box ends.   The design did not remain consistent for long -  the univers and gill fonts supplemented with different futura style faces.

Significantly In 1935 the boxes were simplified with only one side printed and the colour was now orange.  I'd call this Type 2 and within that scope there were variations - probably the address line was soon added on the long sides.    I think the first boxes used varying qualities of paper batches too  - any beige, white or pink boxes likely just being faded yellows and oranges.

In 1938, aeroplanes started to ship in blue boxes with print and date codes on one of the long sides under the address.  The vehicle trade boxes became shoebox style with a lid shorter than the depth of the base.  Again,  they have date codes on one side.  Together I'd call the blue and shoes Type 3 which lasted up until late 1939.

The last prewar trade styles are much like the post war brown boxes with one small printed label on one end.  Type 4 have A**** codes which were dropped when production resumed.

Stacking in boxes took whatever approach the box makers seemed to feel best at the time.  Note how early 29c boxes lay the buses on their sides where the late ones are stood upright.  Or how aeroplanes were first shipped strung into nice echelon formations in cloudy sky blue boxes, rather then shoved sideways into brown shame holes as they later were.   I suppose some of these considerations were about using the boxes as a point of sale display - where opinions changed over time. 

Some of the boxes (like for figures) were very small and although people generally kept most nice boxes as general containers, maybe the very small examples really didn't offer much recycling potential and were discarded.  So while every figure had its own trade box back in the day, maybe none survive for some of them.  The gaps in the trade box number sequences are certainly suggestive.  We know that Meccano regularly offered set prices and single piece prices.  The set would typically be the first number in a consecutive series.   As an example, we knew the code for 47 road signs was A2073 and there was an gap of unknowns following.  Later 47q No Entry Sign was discovered and this number was exactly what we predicted it must be. Then 47g was found and again with the predicted code. Leaning on this evidence, I fill in the missing sequence.   This is not guaranteed evidence for all missing number unfortunately.  The previous 47 set (robot signals) was A2059.  It was then discovered that boxes with distinct directions had codes A2059A (four way) and A2059B (3 way robot)

Telegraph messenger should be 50175

The Telegraph Messanger has arrived and it is as you have pictured above.

Thank you for your detailed description of the trade boxes, have a few Modelled Miniatures boxes, 22 & 24 sets. My 22 is full and in excellant condition but my 24 is not complete yet.

Your comment about the Beige and what I have called salmon coloured has consistantcy accross each of my examples and would have thought fading would be an inconsistant reaction. Interesting though, the more examples found the the more accurate our assuptions could be. After all this "Covid" look forward to bringing together many examples of the trade boxes to understand better.

The 29c Trade box as you say has the horizontal and vertical versions, but there are two sizes of the vertical, have multiple examples of all three types. Think the two verticals have a side by side storage ie accross the box and the other is the models parallel with the long side traditionally divided.

There are one or two other boxes of slightly differant sizes, side packed or wheel down packed.

Haven't seen any prewar boxes just plain brown card, all the examples I have don a post war label, will have to look out for those.

It goes without saying that, of course, I could be wrong. :)  But I'd maintain that colour fading would explain much of the paper variations we see.  Fading can occur by evaporation and with humidity as well as by UV bleaching.  

To define the salmon colour boxes, I'd say this Racing car trade would pass as salmon ...   on the lid the colour intensity has fallen so steeply that it doesn't resemble at all the vestigial colour tone surviving in parts of the base.  Then comparing to another example that has somehow endured in some sheltered situation ...  clearly a sibling and clearly quite orange all over.

Prewar 29c brown box image for example ref

Yes, that is what I have called the salmon colour, I have one similar to your colour suggesting that is as it was produced. I also have two yellow boes but they have printing on the flat upper side, so I do not consider fading to explain the difference.

Also your 29c trade box, to me is the post war label and therefore a late 1945 or a 1946 example. Your model looks prewar so if the model and box are not a mariage, then your model may well be prewar issued post war but think not.

All prewar labels, which also applies to the Hornby Dublo, the Hornby 'O' Gauge and extremley likely Dinky too have the border lines around label hatched like the picture above 'A1002, and yours being solid informs me that it is early post war. If this was mine I would be filling it with type 1 buses, noticeable with the 'V' on the radiator.

David

David