User login

New Comments

-942 Foden 14 ton Tanker 'Regent' (1955-57)

6 hours 53 min ago

-481 Bedford Van 'Ovaltine' (1955-60)

15 hours 14 min ago

Meccano Magazine

2 days 22 hours ago

Meccano Magazine

2 days 22 hours ago

Meccano Magazine

2 days 23 hours ago

Meccano Magazine

3 days 2 hours ago

--50 Ships of the British Navy (1934-41)

5 days 21 hours ago

--50 Ships of the British Navy (1934-41)

5 days 21 hours ago

--30m and 414 Dodge Rear Tipping Wagon

6 days 4 min ago

New arrivals

6 days 13 min ago

--30m and 414 Dodge Rear Tipping Wagon

6 days 4 hours ago

--50 Ships of the British Navy (1934-41)

1 week 6 hours ago

--29b Streamlined Bus (1936-50)

1 week 3 days ago

--24e Super Streamline Saloon (1934-40)

1 week 3 days ago

--29b Streamlined Bus (1936-50)

1 week 3 days ago

New arrivals

1 week 3 days ago

--24e Super Streamline Saloon (1934-40)

1 week 3 days ago

--24e Super Streamline Saloon (1934-40)

1 week 3 days ago

--24e Super Streamline Saloon (1934-40)

1 week 3 days ago

--24c Town Coupe (1934-41)

1 week 5 days ago

--24c Town Coupe (1934-41)

1 week 6 days ago

Newcomer

1 week 6 days ago

--25wm and 640 Bedford Military Truck (1952-55)

1 week 6 days ago

Newcomer

1 week 6 days ago

--24c Town Coupe (1934-41)

1 week 6 days ago

-151b and 620 6 wheel Covered Wagon (1937-55)

2 weeks 1 day ago

--24c Town Coupe (1934-41)

2 weeks 2 days ago

--24f Sportsmans Coupe' (1934-40)

2 weeks 2 days ago

--24f Sportsmans Coupe' (1934-40)

2 weeks 2 days ago

--24f Sportsmans Coupe' (1934-40)

2 weeks 2 days ago

--24f Sportsmans Coupe' (1934-40)

2 weeks 2 days ago

--24f Sportsmans Coupe' (1934-40)

2 weeks 3 days ago

Newcomer

2 weeks 3 days ago

Newcomer

2 weeks 3 days ago

--25wm and 640 Bedford Military Truck (1952-55)

2 weeks 3 days ago

Visitors

  • Total Visitors: 1631784
  • Registered Users: 224
  • Published Nodes: 1447
  • Since: 10/06/2019 - 19:36
26 posts / 0 new
Last post
janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56
-571 and 971 Coles Mobile Crane (1949-66)

Hello dear friends, a question about the Coles Mobile Crane export models, the ones that went from Liverpool into France in circa 1951. A photo below of both a regular one, with regular contemporary box and (right) such a French import, with the highly unusual French box, in which it was sold in the French shops.

In Ramsay's this French import is said to date from the period 1951- 1957. Others (as also stated in the Dulin collection book) suggest that is was imported and packed like this in 1951 only. Indeed, the box is rather scarce, so 1951-1957 seems to be too long to me. If 1951 only is true, I cannot explain the grooved hubs (starting in the second half of 1952) of both my example and the example once owned by Gérard Dulin.
There seems to be no contemporary documentation (factory archives, catalogue etc.) about this date. What then is the evidence anyway for putting it on 1951 and or 1951-1957? Could someone give me a factual or plausible answer, please?

Another request of mine, relating to this model, is the little explanatory sheet of paper, which is lacking with my example. Could someone provide the text, or even a reproduction of that leaflet?

Kind regards, Jan Werner

sjmcm1982
Offline
Joined: Thu, 01/01/1970 - 01:00

Trawling the archive I found this vintage post that interests me.

Here are some points that may help you with your quest.

(i) The Dulin book I am sadly unfamiliar with, it would be worth asking him (if possible) where he collected this info. Ramsey's info on French imports & exports seems somewhat lacking, according to my Ramsey's it says you can buy a pre-war 29dz Renault TN4 for only 80 – 90 pounds (I would take one at that quite happily!). A friend of mine benefited from this erroneous Ramsey's entry a few years ago, he purchased a 29d (post war) TN4 in excellent+ all original & very presentable condition for 32 pounds, but I am going off topic here!

(ii) How did you purchase your example, was it from the original owner or had it passed through many hands previously? Is the Gérard Dulin example identical in all ways? Shades, trim application, tyres etc, if yes then that would likely point towards a short run. We must also consider if this toy is original to the box. Provenance is key here.

(iii) If grooved hubs only existed after the second half of 1952 then this can not date from 1951. I don’t know if it has this detail as I have not seen this version before in hand but by any chance does it have any stamp in the lid or on the base of the box collaborating the dates that you mention? As I’m sure that you already know the 571 (in England) was produced 1949 – 1954 & renumbered 971 from 1954 – 1964, as yours is a 571 I feel we can narrow it down to the second half of 1952 till 1954 (if the toy is the original one for the box).

(iv) Hopefully bringing this back up to the fore will help you get that copy of the instructions that you desire…

Those are both superb examples, they are not so easy to find in such clean & original condition, I should know as I have been looking.

Kind regards,
Stfan

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

At last, thank you Stfan, this is the level of discussion I'd love to see here! I will check and come back later! Best regards, Jan

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
Offline
DTCA MemberUK
Joined: Sat, 01/24/2015 - 18:39

Jan

Is this the leaflet you are looking for:

It is 8.7cm x 6.2cm

Dave

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

A quick reply:
Thanks Dave, no this is not the one I mean. It is in French and I can read with some effort 'Grue Roulante' as a header. Also, the hubs are grooved, although I firmly believe to know that grooved hubs were introduced not earlier than mid-1952, whereas the comment in English reads: "Made in England & imported into France in a special box in 1951". Jacques D, could you join into this discussion? Regards, Jan

sjmcm1982
Offline
Joined: Thu, 01/01/1970 - 01:00

It’s late here and time for bed but I am glad to have started a little more dialogue regarding this toy, shame that the French Meccano magazines don’t cover this epoch.

http://meccrl.free.fr/mmf/

Stfan

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

I made a scan detail from the book, a picture that says more than words.

I am almost sure that the former owner was not the first owner, and of course therefore I am always sceptic about provenance and the compatibility of box and model inside. Moreover, the presumed year 1951 does not coincide with the grooved hubs. It is obvious that the axle ends are very shiny, both on my example and Dulin's, which is an early feature and gives me more confidence in the correct match of model and box. If so, the stated year of availabilty OR my dating of the grooved hubs is not correct. Perhaps the moment of actual availability in France was slightly later than 1951 and the grooved hubs introduction took place slightly earlier than my experience says. In that case the match is correct. Anyway, is a very remarkable and attractive box with that nice picture on top. And in very fine condition.

Two more detailed pictures of my box:

By the way, the hubs on the picture are ridged, not the grooved Supertoys type. This happens more often with some Supertoys which were introduced in this period.

Regards, Jan

sjmcm1982
Offline
Joined: Thu, 01/01/1970 - 01:00

Hello Jan,

So I am guessing that this box has no rubber date stamps anywhere throughout the box?

I have noticed from the scan & your photo that the Dulin example has (what I always assumed were earlier) golden coloured winder handles whereas yours appears to have the silver ones. I also noticed that the Dulin example has a gloss dark blue paper wrap around the box and yours is a satin mid blue so we have at least two productions runs here. I always thought that the darker blue was earlier which in turn would sit well with the winder variations though I know with Dinky not everything is so black & white.

See another here (Australia Carters - Vectis): Identical in every way to the Dulin one.
http://www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/item/137852-rare-french-dinky-571-co...

Lastly, who is to say that these don’t indeed exist with ridged hubs, far less boxes survive than toys, after all it’s just a bit of cardboard made to get it from the factory – shop – home. It may well have been produced from 1951, just we didn’t come across one yet.

I would like to find one for my collection, thanks for sharing.

Kind regards, Stfan

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

Thanks for sharing your considerations on this!

By the way, indeed there is a stamp underneath the box, but it so very faint that it is unreadable!

Regards, Jan

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
Offline
DTCA MemberFrance
Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 22:49

Hi all,

Jan wanted me to come on on this discussion.

I have more time available as I have finished my second book, it is now been transfered to the printer via the net and the copies should be delivered to me before Nov. 20th.

I can confirm that some 571 cranes were imported into France in 1951 only as stated on page 6 of the 1952 trade catalogue.

Quote : Les articles spéciaux d'importation : 14C - 27 AC - 561 - 562 - 571 que nous avions pu vous fournir l'année dernière ne seront vraisemblablement pas livrables cette année, car nous ne pouvons pas obtenir les licences d'importation indispensables.

As far as I know the ridged hubs were replaced by the groved ones in 1952. As the mobile cranes imported into France were on sale in 1951, they must have been made in 1950 before any groved hubs were made.

Jan's superb box is pre May 1951 as at this date the marque Supertoys was replaced by Dinky Toys on all English models.

The instructions posted by Dave are the home ones. For export, a larger sheet (code 17-151-100) was printed in English and French on one side and in Spanish, Dutch, or German on the other.

May I remind that the tools for this model were not made by Meccano Ltd. they have been subcontracted to Thomas Keating of Billingshurst and I have been very lucky to meet by accident two of the guys who made those tools.

I hope that I have answered everybodys questions, if not, please ask.

Jacques.

sjmcm1982
Offline
Joined: Thu, 01/01/1970 - 01:00

Hello Jacques, thanks for your input.

So owing to the information in a French trade catalogue are we safe to assume that indeed all three examples shown here are not original to their boxes and have been swapped over at some time in the last 60+ years?

Or on the other hand (owing to the physical evidence) perhaps that maybe the import license issue was overcome and some were indeed imported & sold post 1952? I know you mention the details of the box branding but what is to say they didn’t use old stock labels (why undertake a costly redesign for a toy that has no future in France?).

I hate to make suppositions and theories but owing to the fact we have three examples with grooved hubs seemingly showing a pattern with box colour, winder colour & tyre colour it is something that I feel can’t be ignored, what a crying shame the date is illegible on Jans magnificent example.

Kind regards, Stfan

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

For anyone who is able to identify the date, as stamped underneath! Kind regards, Jan

micromodels's picture
micromodels
Offline
DTCA Member
Joined: Tue, 07/07/2015 - 07:51

Hi all,

This is connection with the slewing rivet (reference to 972 Coles 20-ton Lorry Mounted crane. I have just checked my 571/971 Coles Mobile Cranes and found that the rivet for mounting the body to the chassis was changed in the same manner as 972.

Note the plated jib of the left-hand version which also has plastic wheel hubs and plastic driver.

Ron F

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

Just managed to add another example of the Coles Mobile Crane to my previous ones. It is the first type - made 1950-1952 - with the early ridged Dinky Toys hubs, as opposed to the later version with grooved Dinky Supertoys hubs. This one and the other example shown must have been produced in about the same period, most probably 1952, as they have come in the same type of original box, still marked 'Dinky Supertoys', so each very close to the moment of change. It strikes me that, looking underneath, the ridged wheels show an extra little ring in between. Althought the box is not perfect, it has all packing pieces there. I thought the couple on the sides were complete, but there is an extra support for the jib. The change-over to the grooved hubs exactly coincides with the use of colour in the catalogues, as far as I'm aware. The black and white - both in Meccano Magazine and in the catalogues - show the Dinky Toys hubs. From 1952 the coloured pictures are seen, with the new grooved hubs.  

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
Offline
AustraliaDTCA Member
Joined: Tue, 07/07/2015 - 04:38

Jan 

Does the box contain an original price written on it anywhere?  I think I may have the answer to the question you raised in Post #12 above.  I presume the quality inspection stamp is on the interior of the lid?  Have you had a close examination of the external part of the box's base as often a much clearer stamp can be found?

Kind regards

Bruce H.   (150)

20170321/1076:0204

 

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

No, I'm sorry, Bruce, nothing readable or even visible showing up, neither quality control stamp, nor price! Such data would have been considerably helpful indeed as an indication for both examples' chronology. Kind regards, Jan 

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
Offline
AustraliaDTCA Member
Joined: Tue, 07/07/2015 - 04:38

Jan

In regard to your rersponse above, Post #16, I am uncertain as to what is going on, as your Post #12 is very clear.

This is what you wrote in Post #12 above together with the image:

 

For anyone who is able to identify the date, as stamped underneath! Kind regards, Jan

 

The picture above is even captioned "stamp_coles_mobile_crane" - so if it is not from a 571 then what is it from???

Kind regards

Bruce H.   (150)

20170321/1077/1722

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

After conversion to the new website something strange happened to the colours of the stamp image in post #12. The correct original image is below. I took the box in my hands anew today and with the bare eye the stamp is hard to find. Curiously that colour change gave the faint original image more contrast and made it more visible. Still, I cannot decipher it - can you, Bruce?  If a stamp is present on the box of my newly added example with the Dinky Toys hubs, I cannot find it - let alone read it. Kind regards, Jan 

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
Offline
DTCA MemberFrance
Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 22:49

I have had a look at the stamp and it seems to read JGYORE although I am not sure about the Y. So this is not a date and it is probaly the name or pseudo of the QC inspector.

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
Offline
DTCA MemberFrance
Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 22:49

There is a subject which has never been discussed and for which a new thread could be opened. Why did the trade mark DINKY SUPERTOYS disapear both in England and France ? Did Meccano forgot to renew the registration and some japanese company noticed that ? Several tin plate clockwork models are known with the DiNKY SUPERTOYS name.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

Taking the photograph below this afternoon, showing Coles models with and without the little ring behind the wheels (like the Land-Rover and some first type no. 153a Jeeps), I became aware that the baseplate of this model, being fully symmetrical in shape, can also be mounted in a reversed way. So, as far as I am aware, after the B.E.V. Electric Truck and the Ammunition Trailer this is the third example with two alternative orientations for the base plate. Kind regards, Jan 

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

Just before putting them back into their display, I discovered another never mentioned anomaly: one of the jibs shows a reversed, mirrored structure. I haven't checked yet if both do occur randomly, or, if the one in the middle is an uncommon exception. Apparently the flat perforated tinplate sheets could be inserted to be bent in the correct U shape in different ways. Kind regards, Jan  

Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Thu, 07/30/2015 - 22:47

Jan. Very special to discover such differences in your collection. Especially if that stands out later. Nice to show this. It gives a special dimension to the possession of such models. Kind regards Jan O.

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
Offline
DTCA MemberFrance
Joined: Fri, 06/26/2015 - 22:49

Jan W.

Many thanks for spoting this new variation. I would think that the quantities of each jibs is very uneven.

About symetrical base plates like the Coles mobile crane and B.E.V. electric truck, both Panhard E.B.R. (80a / 815 and 827) have also base plates which can be fitted either way.

All the best

Jacques

kasvd
Offline
DTCA Member
Joined: Tue, 07/30/2019 - 15:39

Hi Jan,

Great discovery, this is why i like this forum so much.

I have got 4 different versions. They all have jibs like your left and right one.

 

janwerner's picture
janwerner
Offline
DTCA MemberNetherlands
Joined: Tue, 07/15/2014 - 06:56

Dear friends, thank you for your comments. Dinky Toys appear never to be short of surprises, even after so many years!

And, Kas, welcome to the forum. Enjoy! Kind regards, Jan