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Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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Preproduction Samples and Mock-ups

While viewing some old pictures I downloaded from eBay 10 years ago, I came across the following. Other members may have better quality images of these as well as other mock-ups. Does anyone know who the eBay seller was?


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The seller was Chris Wade from Liverpool.

His mother bought a second hand puzzle from a charity shop in Liverpool but on opening the box, it contained fourteen Dinky Toys mock-up.

A tractor was added to the Brockhouse trailer and a ladder to the unknown fire engine, the lot was presented in a case as seen on this picture.

As Chris is not a collector, he had the lot auctioned by Bonhams, it was won by Jean Marie Gianni from Paris for what I think was a very low price.

The fire engine still remains to be identified, after a long discussion on TMT and contact with the Liverpool Fire Brigade we still do not know what the prototype for this model is.

Jacques.

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Great find.The Bedford Van and the Car Transporter are in my collection :)

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So Gianni sold them again.

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If the original collection was bought by Jean Marie Gianni as a set in a carry case, my photographs came from six eBay auctions in December 2004 so that confirms that he did dispose of most if not all of them at that time and most likely "Finja" was the successful bidder for two at that time.
If I only knew then what I know now!! :(

Bruce

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A pity/shame that these historic models have been scattered too, this is no commerce, this is heritage. How to get them all together again? The only solution I see is that the present owners show us much better photos than the rather poor ones published so far, and made from as many points of view as possible. Even two of them deserve a well illustrated article on their own, here or in print.
Finja?
Kind regards, Jan

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The mock-ups and the pre-production samples are two different things.

Wooden mock-up of the Studebaker Commander ref 24 Y.
Note that this car is the 1953 type, the production Dinky Toys is the type 1954.
Cr

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janwerner wrote:
"A pity/shame that these historic models have been scattered too, this is no commerce, this is heritage. How to get them all together again? The only solution I see is that the present owners show us much better photos than the rather poor ones published so far, and made from as many points of view as possible. Even two of them deserve a well illustrated article on their own, here or in print.
Finja?
Kind regards, Jan"

Interesting to see that the final comment on my introductory post is of the rather poor images published so far, without considering the fact that 10 years ago, I had the foresight to copy the photographs that appeared on the eBay auctions. Had I not done so, and then put those images onto the DTCA site this discussion would not be taking place.

There was another image of a wooden mock-up that was posted on another thread. Anyone going to transfer a copy to this thread?

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Bruce,

If you want me to transfer a picture, please either send me the picture or tell me on which thread it is.

Jacques.

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Hi Bruce, I'm not sure if I fully understand what you mean to comment, but that may be my language problem.
The only thing I can add is that of course virtually all mock-up photos ever shown anywhere have been recorded by many of us. I count some 60 in my own image folders. We had quite a few published, and discussions about them on other forums (indeed, not on the DTCA yet, because that was non-existent or just starting then). As I am concerned, it's rather the problem of the average limited quality and many one-sided views of them. In my opinion they have mostly been made in order to sell and not to help research, which would demand much more views and details to be shown.
Kind regards, Jan

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I have sympathy with Bruce.
Thinking he is saying he has gone to the trouble of capturing the pictures and all he gets is disappointment at the quality of them.
Anything is better than nothing and they look ok.Thank you for capturing them Bruce ( ps. I used to subscribe to your Dinky newsletter!).
Regards,
Finja

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Hi Bruce and Finja, I guess we have a communication problem. If so, I'm sorry for raising confusion, my attitude is positive, as always. I am not disappointed in Bruce's pictures, but apparently I am not capable of exactly explaining my point. Let it be so ...

Kind regards, Jan

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dinkycollect wrote:
"Bruce,

If you want me to transfer a picture, please either send me the picture or tell me on which thread it is.

Jacques."

dinkycollect wrote:
"Bruce,

If you want me to transfer a picture, please either send me the picture or tell me on which thread it is.

Jacques."

Actually, I am doing it now on your behalf. The following came from the 39e Chrysler Royal thread which I have taken the liberty of editing. It was submitted by Jan four weeks ago:

janwerner wrote:
"

And as an extra this wooden prototype, described for the first time by Julien Loffet:
Dinky designs. In: Modellers

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Some other interesting pictures of the mysterious fire truck belonging to the above mentioned collection. It was designed on the Dinky Toys scale of 1' to 13/64", ca. 1:60, so not intended as a Supertoy. I know of not any basic documentary information about this project. Who does?

Kind regards, Jan

starni999
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Wonderful pictures Jan,
Slots in the roof suggest a fixed ladder? So what was on the back? A hose reel?
Any idea on dates for this one?
Chris Warr.

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Hi Chris, as you can see the original condition of this mock-up in the suitcase on the first page of this thread, shows a ladder attached, which seems to be the familiar one for the Streamlined Fire Engine, the tabs of which seem to fit snuggly into the holes in the roof. The models in this set cover the period ca. 1950-1955, so presumably this one fits that era too. It is very probable that some kind of hose real should have been attached at the back, which is now gone. Another uncertainty is the identity of the prototype modelled here.
Possibly it was intended to replace the Streamlined Fire Engine, which, introduced in 1936, was rather old-fashioned in the early 1950s. Notwithstanding that the Streamlined Fire Engine remained very popular and well-selling as a toy, which may have made Meccano reconsider this possible new introduction. Besides, the Fire Engine with Extending Ladder was bound to be issued after all!
It's just a guess ... others may continue guessing (or have firm unveiling information?)
Kind regards, Jan

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59051 SAFARI VAN in the SUPER-VALUE CHAMPS Range

This is a preproduction sample, in thin plastic with metal wheels. This was the first in a series of large scale "chunky" die-cast vehicles that were intended to be launched in 1980. In the words of the Trade Catalogue, the range was being developed for ruggedness and play value and the new bigger size means unbeatable value-for-money.

I acquired this example from Vectis many years ago, and sold it again through Vectis last year.

Included below is a page from the MECCANO AND DINKY 1980 Trade Catalogue

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janwerner wrote:
"Some other interesting pictures of the mysterious fire truck belonging to the above mentioned collection. It was designed on the Dinky Toys scale of 1' to 13/64", ca. 1:60, so not intended as a Supertoy. I know of not any basic documentary information about this project. Who does?

Kind regards, Jan"

Hello Jan

I am wondering if the mock-up is based on an Austin?

Although this Austin is different at the rear, perhaps what Dinky modelled was a prototype which ultimately ended up as,

the above, used by the Hungerford Fire Brigade. This is about the only similar item to the Dinky mock-up, and being an Austin, it falls within the usual modelling company. But perhaps it was some other manufacturer!

Kind regards

Bruce (150)

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That is really a nice find, Bruce! Although there are plenty of differences, the overall design similarity is striking. The general appearance of the mock-up seems slightly cruder than many others, which allows for some liberty as the original vehicle modelled is concerned, which indeed could be an Austin. Anyway, the scale of approx. 1:60 is the same as for the 30 series Austins and related commercial Dinky Toys vehicles (so not meant to become a large format / large scale Dinky Supertoy). I think it would produce a fascinating and desirable replica of a 'Dinky that never was'.
Kind regards, Jan

starni999
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Hi all,
Here's one a bit closer to home Liverpool Fire Brigade:

Chris Warr

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When this mock-up was uncovered,I searched the net for a similar vehicle but did not find any. I also wrote to the Liverpool Fire Brigade who answered me kindly that no such engine had ever been part of the brigade.

Bruce's pictures show the nearest engine to the Dinky mock-up, Fire engines have never been mass produced, they are made to a local county or brigade specification so very few identical engines were made and this is why it is extremely difficult to find pictures of a specific engine. This applies to the Streamlined fire engine, the fire engine with extending ladder, the Delahaye and most of the other.

Jacques.

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Hello Chris

Ah, you stole my thunder! I was about to post the same picture after I came home from work. (Yep, still working at 70+!)

Jacques

You are indeed quite correct in that fire engines were not mass produced to the same design, but the basic design was changed to suite a particular region, county, etc.

Still it is fun trolling The Net to see what is out there. In the meantime, I have some feelers out to see if there was a design similar to the Meccano mock-up. Watch this space but do not hold your breath!

Bruce
(150)

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Richard
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My profile image is the Mock-up of the presidential Citro

starni999
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Hi all,

A diversion from the topic I know, but for anybody interested in Fire Engines I can recommend this wonderful volume from Olyslager, I've had this since the early 70's, and would spend hours poring over it, and the many other volumes in the series as a kid. Still available through Ebay....

It's got loads of great pictures like the Leyland Streamlined Fire Engine...

Chris Warr.

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janwerner wrote:
"That is really a nice find, Bruce! Although there are plenty of differences, the overall design similarity is striking. The general appearance of the mock-up seems slightly cruder than many others, which allows for some liberty as the original vehicle modelled is concerned, which indeed could be an Austin. Anyway, the scale of approx. 1:60 is the same as for the 30 series Austins and related commercial Dinky Toys vehicles (so not meant to become a large format / large scale Dinky Supertoy). I think it would produce a fascinating and desirable replica of a 'Dinky that never was'.
Kind regards, Jan"

Hello Jan

I sent the pictures of the mock-up to an authority on UK fire engines, and the following is his reply:

Hi Bruce,

What an interesting discovery. This is a Bedford O 3-ton chassis with fire engineering by Coventry Climax Engines Ltd - a 4-door enclosed type fire engine incorporating their 700gpm or 500gpm pump. Examples were supplied to the Burgh of Largs Fire Brigade, the Royal Burgh of Inverurie (both Scotland), St. Albans Rural District Council FB and the Rover Co. Ltd (Aero Engines) in 1940/41.

Hope that helps.

Roger

I then went in search of photographs of the Bedford, and this is what I have uncovered. Although the rear is different, one has to realise that no two fire engines are exactly the same unless ordered by a particular fire department.

The above Bedford is one of those supplied to Royal Burgh of Inverurie, as mentioned in Roger's email. It is pictured here at a show in Llandudno in Wales, having come over from Ireland where it was preserved. It is to be noted that the rear is not identical to the Dinky mock-up, but one has to take into consideration changes that could have been made to the original bodywork over the intervening years. It is to be noted that the windscreen is a two-piece, rather than a single windscreen as shown by some of the above models as well as the mock-up.

It then took Oxford Diecast to make a model of similar lines to that planned by Meccano all those years ago!

Kind regards

Bruce (150)

starni999
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Nice one Bruce!
I think we can safely say that's the one then, a Bedford it is.
Oxford did a good job on the research, even the Reg no's are in the correct FYH FLE series.
I presume this was a wartime NFS design only, so it may have seemed a bit dated to make as a new Dinky after the war?
Chris Warr.

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Thanks Bruce, your efforts are much appreciated!
The obvious difference is that the mock-up's roof is much lower and flatter than on the prototypes shown. Still, we come very close to the basic prototype. All of them are wonderful vehicles anyway.
Kind regards, Jan