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janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Tyres, general

No doubt some tyres matters have been discussed here and there already, but they should be more concentrated in my opinion. So a new 'tyres' thread here.

Inducement is the '1950s smooth white tyres' issue. In the 1950s it was the black Austin Atlantic only which was officially fitted with small 15mm white tyres. Nevertheless several occurences are incidentally spotted of small smooth white tyres on other Dinky Toys. Of course the evidence for their originality has to be strong or very convincing, because tyres can easily be swapped.
It is my 'theory' that when Meccano decided, in August 1957, to replace all smooth 15mm tyres on the smaller Dinky Toys by treaded ones, they had to get rid of the smooth ones, in favour of new introductions. The black ones were no problem: they soon were 'consumed' by the majority of the smaller Dinky Toys. But the black Austin Atlantic was not able to 'consume' the surplus stock of the smooth white tyres and Meccano just fitted some batches here and there of other Dinky Toys with those white tyres, before they could use the treaded white tyres, exclusively for new introductions.
In my circles I have several Dinky collectors who are first owners of such models or have bought their models from reputable dealers. Perhaps only the first owners should be taken seriously as 'proof' because the more links in the chain from first to present owner, the less probable or hard to be certain.
Here are some examples of Dinky's that I was puzzled about too, but the first owner, who was a good friend of mine (he died seven years ago), bought many Dinky's new in box in the toy shops in the second half of the 1950s, and who had no purpose at all to cheat about this, stated that he bought these himself in that period, most of which still new in box.
He was so used to them that he was wondering what I made all the fuzz about, and gladly allowed me to make some photographs of these models, hidden here and there between his many 'regular tyred' Dinky Toys. The photos are rather primitive, because I made them unexperienced, with flash, many years ago. Apart from these models I know several other likewise 'testimonies' of others.

If the provenance for the original dating is not convincing enough, the Mobilgas Tanker is the best example. It was introduced in 1957, was always fitted with treaded tyres and invisible replacement of the tyres is very hard (although not fully impossible).
If Bruce and others never spotted them, it may be that only batches of such 'hybrid' 1957/58 models have been exported to the Netherlands.
It would be nice if others could mention or show similar occurences (or just can disprove my little 'theory').
Kind regards, Jan

starni999
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DTCA MemberUK

Hi Jan,
Thanks for this thread, a difficult one as you say as they are so easily swopped, I have seen a Morris J van with the white tyres, but assumed it was a swop, maybe I was wrong? I presume the fitting of white tyres to the American cars was a way of replicating the look of a whitewall?
The whole look of a model is completely changed by tyre colour, just look at the Supertoys with the black and then lovely grey tyres fitted, different model entirely.
Sad I know, but I do have a favourite Dinky tyre, the 1st series Foden Herringbone.
Chris Warr.

Townie54's picture
Townie54
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I must admit the Studebaker tanker looks rather good with the White tyre.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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There has been frequent mention on various threads about some models, normally fitted with black treaded tyres, having white treaded tyres. The 150 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith being one notable example. Although there may be many who disagree with this, the two models shown below is a classic example how white tyres can be easily swapped

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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Mr Moderator

The above Post dated 12/04/2014 (4 December 2014) is incomplete.  The two images or more plus my continued narrative is missing, which unfortunately makes the following Post from Jan in its current state irrelevant as he refers to both the images and my observations.

Can you please locate the original Post on the old website and transfer the missing section to the above Post.

Many thanks.

Bruce  (150)

5 January 2015

#741

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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Post #4 as previously mentioned, is incomplete, having lost most of it during the transfer process from the old website. Through the miracle of modern science but in particular the genius of Al, the following is my Post in its original state, with the exception of the photographs:

There has been frequent mention on various threads about some models, normally fitted with black treaded tyres, having white treaded tyres. The 150 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith being one notable example. Although there may be many who disagree with this, the two models shown below is a classic example how white tyres can be easily swapped "for appearance" and then left as is without returning each tyre to the original model and then forgotten.

Back in late 1961, having received a 181 Volkswagen the year before in light blue, spun hubs, shiny base plate and no sales number, I received a 187 Volkswagen Karmann Ghia in green and cream. I decided to switch the black tyres on the 181 to the 187 and put the 187 white treaded tyres on the 181. I was quite pleased with the effect especially the black tyres on the 187 so I left them on their respective models.

A little later I started moving away from Dinky Toys and onto other more pleasing aspects of life! We then fast forward to 1983 and on a visit from Papua New Guinea to see my Mother, I collected my Dinky Toys that I had left in her "care", and at the same time, seeing I was missing quite a few models. In looking over the models, I found the 181 still with its white tyres, but there was no sign of the 187 to confirm my actions years previously of swapping the tyres. Fifteen years later after returning to live in Australia, we received a visit from my eldest brother on 8 October 1998 and he brought out a box of my Dinky Toys, including my 150 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith, 196 Holden Special Sedan, 197 Morris Mini Traveller, 198 Rolls Royce Phantom V and my 187 Volkswagen Karmann Ghia the latter still in its box. He also brought out the empty box for my then unboxed 661 Recovery Tractor with its inner packing pieces and old bus and tram tickets from Sydney tucked under the large packing piece. Of the other Dinky Toys, I always had their boxes, but no original models. It was like Christmas 40 years ago reuniting all these models with their boxes!!

Opening the 187 box, I was delighted to see my little Volkswagen Karmann Ghia still with its black tyres I had swapped all those years ago.  What I have been trying to relate, rather long-winded I admit, is that for many models that are shod with treaded white tyres but the norm being treaded black tyres, the chances of the tyres having been swapped years previously has to be seriously considered, especially the 150 Rolls Royce, 181 Volkswagen, 194 Bentley, 195 Jaguar, 196 Holden and 198 Rolls Royce; the Rolls Royce’s in particular as the black tyres were more in keeping with their "status". Of the models shown at the start of this Thread, of these, I have never seen any of them with white tyres before, but the Mobilgas tanker has to stand out as one reasonably assumed to have been originally shod with white tyres, although the front ones have a newer appearance so these may be a modern replacement. So too the age of the tyres on the other models shown may indicate a replacement at some stage. I must confess that I rather like the Karmann Ghia with black tyres! 

Bruce   (150)

20 February 2016

#780

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Bruce, thank you very much for these apparent examples, and I completely agree with you. An overwhelming majority of unexpected tyres or tyre combinations will no doubt be the result of swapping after leaving the factory and toy shop. That's why my condition 'of course the evidence for their originality has to be strong or very convincing, because tyres can easily be swapped', is one that has to be taken very seriously. One strong fact (first buyer has bought it like this in the shop in apparent original condition) or a firm combination of other circumstantial evidence have to be present.
Of course, some of the tyres are visibly in different individual condition, but I have so often seen white (or black) tyres deteriorating differently in the course of years. Only after so many years it becomes visible that tyres of batches of different age and quality were circulating in the factory at the same time. This may plausibly have been the case if some remaining stock was swept together from different corners.
N.B.: I am explicitly talking about the smooth white tyres only, not the treaded ones, which were never fitted on the only mid-1950s Dinky that officially used white tyres: the black Austin Atlantic.
Kind regards, Jan

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi all, I just bought a nice boxed one dozen tyres no. 10253, the 20 mm black

starni999
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DTCA MemberUK

Hi Jan,

There's another one here that looks the same, the pencilled price is different to yours though, I've found a few pictures of this size box, maybe supplies were short of the tyres box and boxes meant for other Meccano parts were used?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-BOX-OF-DINKY-TOYS-TYRES-TIRES-PART-No...

Chris Warr.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

That is really striking and takes away most of my suspicion!
It's hard to imagine that two persons created such a similar 'custom made' box independently from each other.
Chris, thanks for your assistance and best regards, Jan

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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DTCA MemberUK

I have three boxes of spare tyres:

The 10253 grey tyres are suitable for the Big Bedford, AEC Shell Tanker, Leyland Comets etc. Sadly there is no way they can ever be used as they have hardened so much they are absolutely solid. The 13978 black tyres would fit the Euclid, 7.2" Howitzer etc., they do still have some flexibility and possibly could be used.

My third box is possibly more interesting as it is still sealed from new and has never been opened - it still contains Liverpool air!!!!!!

Dave

john45
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hello Dave,

As a young boy I got a small box for tyres and I still have it. This is for black tyres as the label shows. Number is also 50099. Price was 0,35 cents for one tyre.

John.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi John, I don't know what kind of cents or which period you are referring to, but the 1955 Dutch catalogue lists a price of 84 cents for the dozen of the 10253 20mm tyres, which means that a single tyre (were they sold separately?)would cost a mere 7 cents. Or were they sold separately for a different, extortionate price?

In that case a single tyre's price of 35 cents would almost match the price for a twin engined fighter!

Kind regards,Jan

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

John and Jan

The price written on the outside of the box was for the entire contents of twelve. In Australia, the price for the box of 10253 per dozen was 35 cents as shown by the image below.

Kind regards

Bruce

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

janwerner wrote:

"Hi all, I just bought a nice boxed one dozen tyres no. 10253, the 20 mm black

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

The preceding message is yet another example whereby during the transfer process from the old website to the new, something happened that edited the above Post of mine.  Unfortunately this occurred before I started making a copy of all the Posts I had submitted to the old Forum.

Does anyone still have the email that was sent out to those subscribing to this Thread/Topic? If so, I would be grateful for a copy of that email that will allow me to finish off the discussion!  It would be nice to see every Post that has been transferred in their original unedited state!

The same goes for those who have noticed some of their posts are incomplete.  I still have most of the messages delivered to me when a comment was posted although I do have large gaps where I forgot to save messages or had been busy with the "delete" button!

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

7 February 2016

#761

 

 

 

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

With reference to Post #15, here is the complete, unedited version thanks again to the wizardry of Al:

janwerner wrote: Hi all, I just bought a nice boxed one dozen tyres no. 10253, the 20 mm black ‘Dinky Supertoys’ tyres with round tread. <img

src="http://dtcawebsite.com/sites/default/files/old-forum-images/IMG_0782.JPG">  They are all original and rather fresh, hardly having lost their flexibility. They are seen

fitted on the later first type Fodens, early Coles Mobile Cranes, Coventry Fork Lift Trucks etc. The black ones with round tread in their turn were gradually replaced by the grey ones (and the black ones with block tread profile) about 1953/54, starting at the end of 1952 (see catalogue picture of 1953). <img

src="http://dtcawebsite.com/sites/default/files/old-forum-images/IMG_0785.JPG">  Now there is one strange thing which I cannot explain. The box is bigger than the regular box for the later black block tread tyres (with the same number 10253), and the box is of natural card board, no yellow box. The wrap around the box, however, is the regular one, and with same dimensions, which means that it cannot be wrapped fully around the box, so the dozen sign is not positioned exactly in the centre of the end flaps. I have no doubt at all concerning the authenticity of the wrap around sticker, but the box? I have never seen this. <img src="http://dtcawebsite.com/sites/default/files/old-forum-images/IMG_0787.JPG"> 

Whatever, I am very glad with the full dozen of tyres, because they are original and of good, unused quality, and less often seen than the later grey or black block treaded ones. Can anybody shed some light on this box matter?

Kind regards, Jan

Hello Jan It appears as if 10253 was subjected to all sorts of different packaging. Here are my two examples: <img src="http://dtcawebsite.com/sites/default/files/old-forum-images/102531919_64..."> This one is packaged in the

usual thin yellow cardboard although this box is marked "engraved". <img src="http://dtcawebsite.com/sites/default/files/old-forum-images/102531920_64...">

Whereas thin white cardboard has been used with the above without the word "engraved" and the absence of the dimensions of the tyre. (I hope that is not blood stains on this box!!) 

Kind regards

Bruce    (15)

Reposted 20 February 2016

#781

john45
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Here is my box with price, written 0,35 per stuk (piece).
I presume the shopowner wanted to get rich fast with this price.

john

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Wat een afzetter!
(such a swindler)
Kind regards, Jan

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi all, having processed some of my Dinky Toys factory lists image files the other day, I thought it might be of interest for you to see their contents in this thread. It concerns the single sheet Memo no. 17982 List of Dinky Toys Tyres (31 x 24 cm), redrawn by M.S., dated 22 June 1954 and the six sheet Memo no. 20046 List of tyres for Dinky Toys (each ca. 31 x 25 cm), redrawn by M.S., dated 28 March 1958.
Both are referred to in the Great Book of Dinky Toys (page 217), but have never been published as an image as far as I am aware. As soon as the renovation of the site will have been completed I hope to be able to upload them to the relevant members section in their full 400 dpi resolution, showing every fibre and corrections, as seen through a magnifying glass.

Kind regards, Jan

starni999
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DTCA MemberUK

Great stuff Jan,
In this computer dominated day it is lovely to see it all written out longhand.
Interesting that the moulded plastic wheels on the Dublos are listed as tyres too.
Chris Warr.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

I quite agree with you Chris, this manual work is miraculous in our digital eyes nowadays. So much accuracy, craftsmanship and even dedication! Some 13 years ago I wrote an extensive 20 page article (in four parts) on this matter in the Dutch Auto in Miniatuur magazine. In fact it was also a kind of tribute to this craftsmanship. MC thought it was too long, so they rejected a proposal for a translation into English. One page:

This list (and all the others) gives a lot more 'circumnstantial evidence' than just information about tyres. Look for example at all the assy jobs, of which drawings must have existed - or still do exist but outside our perception.

Still, I have some confusion about the tyres. No. 10253 seems to have vanished from the list and we see 20100 and / or 20101 where we expect this number. They are all 20 mm, but are they black, grey, round or block treaded? See the advise on the boxes of the contemporary Fire Engine 955, they deviate (10253 AND 20101). The final box shows 20101, whereas I have two models with this type of box, one with grey tyres (as shown), the other with black. Who knows the clue?

Kind regards, Jan

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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DTCA MemberUK

My gut feeling on this is that the 10253 would be grey and the 20101 would be black. That is just using logic as the black tyres gradually replaced the grey ones.

This is a third conundrum. Is the item still in its original box????? and are the tyres the ones originally fitted in Liverpool??????????? There are many possible permutations.

In reality who knows?

Dave

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Jan,

These are very interesting documents showing the state of tyres in March 1958.

It seems that when the ttype of tyres changed for example from smooth to treaded, the reference did not change.

Grey and black tyres of the same size have the same reference, some times the ref. of grey tyres had a "g" suffix.
10253 renumbered 099
10253g renumbered 099g

The Tyres list on the Encyclopaedia lists 35 different tyres, tracks and rubber wheels, additions and comments are welcomed.

20100 and 20101 are not in that list. Are they an other re-numbering of 10253 / 099 ?

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Not about types of tyres this time (but their preservation) and not about British this time (but French). Ever since this model of the French Coventry Climax Forklift Truck (Chariot a fourches Coventry Climax) has been in my possession the extremely flat tyres of both front wheels were an annoying distraction from its excellent state. The other day I came across a set of authentic (not newly produced) black 20 mm round tread French tyres, still flexible, on eBay. The tyres arrived today, I cleaned them and replaced the completely worn and hard like stone originals (I had to use quite some force to break them off).

The result is really beautiful. In lowered position the forks rested firmly on the ground, whereas they are now on a natural level some mms above the ground, and the whole looks great again. This notorious flattening of original rubber tyres will not happen again as soon as a model is preserved in my displays, because they all are resting on stands in order to prevent the tyres from flattening. Some pictures below. Kind regards from a happy Dinky Toys enthusiast, Jan

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

Hello Jan.

I do the same !

I use pieces of polystyren. What about you ?

Richard

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

It looks like that :

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Yes, Richard, I use the same material, 10 mm thick. That will mostly do. If not, I raise it by glueing an extra layer of fabric or card board in between to get the correct height in order to have the wheels from the ground, and not too high. When I'm satisfied with the level the support is covered by fabric, felt, in order to have a soft and pleasant looking surface. Most models can do with a 'standard' support, but many have adjusted sizes and shapes too, as you can imagine. As soon as a new addition comes in I register it in my catalogue and I make a provisional or definite support immediately. Kind regards, Jan

 

Richard's picture
Richard
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DTCA MemberFrance

Hi Jan.

Did you try a paint to cover the polystyrene ?

To cover it with a lay of fabric must be a hard work.

I see that you don't cover the underneath side ; am I right ?

Friendly yours

Richard

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

It's no use trying to paint it because I would not know which kind of paint would stick on this polystyren stuff. The gum glue (pritt and other similar glues) for household use sticks quite well though, is harmless, stainless and washable. It is not difficult to cover the pieces of polystyren with a fabric like that, although some complicated shapes may have to be cut out incidentally. Just some other picture examples I found, below. Kind regards Jan  

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Jan

I should have made a comment in March last year when you posted the Meccano LIST OF TYRES FOR DINKY TOYS sheets, but neglected to do so.  What a fabulous addition to our information on Dinky Toys and certainly puts to rest models that are shod with any other type of tyre such as the 150 Rolls Royce Silver Wraith with 14095 white engraved.

However, I have a "slight" problem with one of my American cars given to me for Christmas in 1959.  The tyres are starting to crumble, with the first sign having been large cracks. This was no doubt caused by the temperature and humidity of where we live in Australia. In fact, the rear tyres have both fallen off with the front ones having the large gap hidden by the mudguard!

I can easily replace these with tyres from a local dealer, but the thought has occurred, why not genuine tyres that came from Meccano?  This is the conundrum facing me - I have an unopened pack of 14095 (white, engraved) tyres that I acquired a number of years ago. I have no idea what condition these tyres are currently in, and whether they also have succumbed to the climate in Australia. Do I throw caution to the wind and open the packet, and if they are satisfactory, re-shod my model with four of these, leaving the other eight to be used in the future on any others? I only have one packet of these, but I am sure other unopened packets can still be found - eventually!

Here is the test for today for you and anyone else who would like to provide me with the benefit of their wisdom!

Do I use the packet of Meccano white engraved tyres for the purpose for which they were made, or should I forget authenticity and just go for the modern day replacements?

I welcome any and all comments!

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

7 February 2016

#760

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