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dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

-502 and 902 Foden Flat Truck (1947-59)

Is this an unlisted variation ?

Has anybody seen a type 2 Foden flat bed with this marking ?

goldenp's picture
goldenp
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DTCA Member

My 502/902 has no markings here. Looking through my other mark 2 Fodens. My 903 is marked with 903, my Maroon 905 is marked 905 but my red grey 905 is not marked under on the board.

Mark 1 Fodens are not marked in this way so I wonder if this is a late revision to the dies for the Mk 2 Fodens. If so I tought the red grey was a later version.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

My 902 does not show a number either:

For dating it may help that the inside stamp says: 10 5 56.

My 905 chain truck does not show the number below either. The inside box stamp of that one says: H8 56.

Kind regards, Jan Werner

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Continuing this post of a few years back, noticing the thread from my old acquaintance Peter Golden whom we lost in November 2011.

My 902 has the marking 902 under the tray as shown in the following picture.

This is how the model looks like. The factory inspection is for January 1954.

In looking at the tyres of Dinkycollect's 902 they are of the same pattern as mine, with Jan's being a later issue with "block" tread. Jan's model is from May 1956 so it would appear that the marking was deleted between 1954 and 1956. If we can obtain more quality inspection stamps, it may assist in defining exactly when the number was deleted.
Kind regards
Bruce

hoort's picture
hoort
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Checking my 502/902 Flat Trucks, this is what I could find:
- no marking on the 502 first type Flat Trucks.
2nd type:
- 502 french blue/red body/light blue wheels
502 matt light blue covered box (same colour as the light blue covered
boxes on the late 1st type Fodens like the 505 Chain Lorry)
no date stamp
no 902 marking
- 502 burnt orange/green body and wheels
502 shiny dark blue covered box
date stamp H 10 3
with 902 marking
- 502/902 red/green body and wheels
502/902 dual numbered striped box
date code 12 53
no 902 marking
- 902 orange/green body and wheels
902 striped box
date code 5 55
no 902 marking
- 902 yellow/green body and wheels
902 striped box
date code 9 H3
no 902 marking

Only one 902 marking on my Flat Trucks, could it be introduced and deleted around the renumbering from 502 to 902? And why?
Remain questions to me!
Rob

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Was the die for the three second type Fodens rear beds the same ?

• Flat truck,
• Flat truck with tailboard,
• Flat truck with chains,

all of them having the chain boses from 1952 on and looking very carefuly at the picture which I posted at the top of this thread, it seeems that the 902 is on a replaceable insert.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Have you checked the photograph I submitted, as both models appear the same. I am uncertain what is meant by a "replacement insert".

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce.

A replacable insert is a small part of the die that can be removed and repleaced by an other one.

The die for the Flat truck with tailboard could probably be fitted with an insert that filled the tailboard space. One could then cast a flat bed without tailboard in that die.

A well known example is the 60f / 891 / 997 Caravelle jet. The same die travelled several times from Bobigny to Liverpool and back, a repleacable insert was used to change the marking "MADE IN FRANCE" into "MADE IN ENGLAND".

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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Jacques

Herewith are two photographs of the 902 inscription on my Foden, taken as best I can with the equipment available to me. It does show as if the insertion includes the support for the tray back, however I will leave it to you to analyse without me offering any thoughts or suggestions.

Bruce

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce,

Your excellent pictures show a line on each side of the ref. number. This proves that the number is on an insert and suggests that there was only one die for the flat bed and the tailboard.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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Jacques

Yes it does prove an insert, however, perhaps you can tell me why later issues of the 902 have neither the number or apparently no evidence of an insert? New/replacement mould? Why bother with a number in the first place as Meccano did not seem very consistent with numbering the underneath of Foden, Guys, Big Bedfords and Leylands? I am surprised Meccano did not use the tinplate base for the model details, although again cost would have been a contributing factor.

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce,

I have only three 2nd type Fodens and none of them has the ref. Number.

I have only seen models with the 902 marking. Are the other rear beds marked as well : 901, 903, 905 ?

It would be interesting to make a chart describing all the variations for each model : stanchion boses, towing hook, tyres, ref number, colour etc...

Identifications have been added to castings at an unknown date. This can be a ref. number or the name of the car cast into the ceiling. I think that this practice stoped when glazed windows were introduced.

starni999
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DTCA MemberUK

Hi all,
I've checked all my Fodens and only two have bed numbers, an Orange / Green 902, and this Blue / Orange 903......

My camara isn't up to detail shots, but in the hand you can see the casting lines like Bruce's.

CW.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Jacques
A close inspection of the flatbed of my 902 has revealed the holes for the 505/905 carefully filled in. See the attached photograph below.
As for your previous message:
I have only three 2nd type Fodens and none of them has the ref. Number.
I have only seen models with the 902 marking. Are the other rear beds marked as well : 901, 903, 905 ?

Peter Golden in an earlier post has this to say:
goldenp wrote:
"My 502/902 has no markings here. Looking through my other mark 2 Fodens. My 903 is marked with 903, my Maroon 905 is marked 905 but my red grey 905 is not marked under on the board.

Mark 1 Fodens are not marked in this way so I wonder if this is a late revision to the dies for the Mk 2 Fodens. If so I thought the red grey was a later version."
The only point I would like to make from Peter's observation is that based on the inspection stamp in the box of my Foden, assuming of course the box and model have remained intact since new and I have no reason to think otherwise, that this was an early revision rather than a later version. So perhaps one should have a good look out for these Fodens carrying the 902/903 and 905 Sales number underneath the flatbed, and at the same time, if the model is boxed, for the inspection stamp to be notified through the Forum, preferably with a photograph, to enable us to determine exactly the time frame that these were used. This is where we need the support of the wider DTCA family!
Bruce

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce,

This poor drawing shows the principle of interchangeable inserts.

In the case of the flat beds without chains, the short screw / insert leaves a small circle without grove on top of the flat bed.

When replaced by the longer insert, there is a hole to insert the stanchions. The fact that we have the small circles proves that there was only one die for the 501 and 505 and probably also for the 502.

Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Help. Who can show me in pictures the differences between 1st and 2nd type 502 flat Foden truck? I am looking for the very 1st type 502 but do not easy recognise the typical  specifications. Ramsay model toys catalogue mention the specifications for the early 502 Foden Flat Truck 1947-48 as: 1st type cab with flash, spare wheel, hook on some, no tank slits in the chassis, no chain-post bosses, black "herringbone" tyres, Supertoy. The difference between the cabs and the flash is, of course clearly to see. But the next specifications are not clear to me: no tank slits in chassis, no chain-post bosses and black "herringbone" tyres. I hope someone can show these specifications with pictures.

Many thanks,

Jan Oldenhuis

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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DTCA MemberUSA

Jan--I have a good selection of 1st and 2nd type Foden's, so have taken some photos of the underside, that is hopefully what you are looking for.  Besides the new cab, the 2nd type Foden had a completely new base, so I am showing you a photo of a very early Flat Truck with Tailboard (no hook, no tank slits, and no chain bosses, with herringbone tires)....this base is identical to the Flat Truck.  I am also including a photo of the later, 2nd Type Foden Flat Truck, and, of course, these all had the tank slits and the chain-post bosses, as well as different tires.  I hope this is what you want to see. If you also want to see the last version of the Type 1 Foden, I have the Flat Truck with Chains, which also has tank slits and chain bosses (that are different than the 2nd Type).  Let me know if you also want to see this....it would clearly show how the base changed when they introduced both the tanker truck and the later chain truck.

             Best regards,  Terry

Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Terry. That's exactly what I'm looking for. Thank you for your photos. They are very clear. A close up per model perpendicular to the base. Because of this you can clearly see the sides of the base where the details as the chain bosses are to discover. Now I also see that on the 1st type 502 does not appear with a model number. Through the totally black base of the 1st type on most pictures I did not clearly saw the differences. Yes, I like to see the last version of the Type 1 Foden. Than we see all versions of the base of this beautiful model.

Best regards, Jan.

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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Jan---Glad that I was able to help! I will gladly post some photos of the baseplate of the last version of the 1st type Foden later today, as you will see how and where they added those tank slits and the early version of the chain bosses.
Best regards, Terry

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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Jan--  Here is a photo of the base of my Type 1 Foden Flat Truck with Chains....released only for a short time in 1952, then superseded by the new Type 2.  So this will show the chain bosses on the base, as well as the tank slits.  Obviously, since this had chain posts installed, the bottom attachment shows.  Hope this satisfies what you were looking for.  I also included a view of the bed of a Type 2 Foden Flat truck, where you can barely see the rounded areas where the posts would go on the Flat Truck with chains version.

      Best regards,  Terry

Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Terry - Thank you very much for your photos. The specifictions of the different bases are very clear to see in your pictures. It's now completely clear to me.

Best regards, Jan.

john45
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hello Jan,

In my collection is the first drawing (blue print) of the Foden cab and chassis, made 4-2-46. Bought this at a Christies auction many years ago. It was very dark and details were not visible. Professionals at OCE copy factory could bring it in good condition so we can see all the details now. On the drawing are all the Change Orders, c.o. Name Foden 8 wheel chassis, scale 2:1, material: zinc base alloy. Drawn by A.L.M.

Issue 2; 1/4"x 45 angle C'sink added, 21-8-47, c.o.2021

Issue 3: spigot and stops for hook added, 3/8 spigot part cut away, 29-10-47, c.o. 2083

Issue 4: job 12163A deleted, 12163 now has 6 slots, 18-3-49, c.o. 2567

Issue 5: underside edges extended to ribs E & 1/8 past tool box, also a 3/32 rad. from rib to tool box face, 27-2-50, c.o. 2894.

Meccano used a interchangeable tool if the main tool was used for models with small differences such as slots for the tanker. So 12163 was without slots and 12163A part with slots. From 18-3-49 all chassis had slots conform the drawing. Due to a new front, the chassis was redrawn 5-7-57.

Hope this is of help to you, John.

 

 

 

Jan Oldenhuis's picture
Jan Oldenhuis
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Thank you very much for this highly specialized information - John. It would be nice if you also add the pictures accordingly.

Moreover, I have another question which I note is how to recognize the real first type Foden: I read on a website about the history of the Dinky Fodens "That the first run of Fodens used a "silver nut & bolt" fixing to secure the back to the cab and chassis. The black nut & bolt is not issued on any first cab Foden".

Maybe not so important this question, but how do I recognize that? I see many pictures of this type with some brown corrosion on the bolt and nut that I ask by myself  - is it a silver nut & bolt or not. Does it mean that not any corrosion can/may be found on this type of bolt and nut?

Best regards, Jan.

 

john45
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hello Jan,

I am sorry but I cannot help you further. I only collect pre war and have little detailed knowledge on post war items. It just happened that I got the drawing as part of a lot with pre war drawings. Hope another member can help you.

John.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Hi Jan, a picture to illustrate this issue. Indeed my first types (the early ones, without towing hooks) have the silver (well, blank metal) nuts and bolts. The tanker, however, because of the special character, has a spigot only. I have no later first types with the hooks. Kind regards, Jan 

 

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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DTCA MemberUSA

Jan--If you go back and look at my original photos from a couple of days ago, there is a photo of the base of a Type 2 later Foden, and it clearly shows the black or darker nut retaining the spare tire.
Best regards, Terry

Townie54's picture
Townie54
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DTCA Member

My 902 is similarly engraved underneath with the number. I bought my 902 and 903 at the same time in 1970 from Brookes toyshop in Crawley when it closed down. The 903 has no number.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Terry and Jan O.

I did a check of my Fodens and I can concur with Jan that the silver nut is the accepted type with all the 1st Series Fodens. With the 2nd Series, the earliest boxed model I have is one inspected in April 1954 and this has a silver nut. For some unknown reason, the only nuts that have had rust develop on models that have passed through my hands are silver nuts that appear to have been removed in the past.

Interestingly, but all the early Guys and Leylands use the same silver nut but with these, I have uncovered a date when the darker nut was possibly first used, this being May 1953 at least for the 533 Leyland Cement Wagon. It may have been earlier than this by several months as I have not as yet examined my earlier 531 and 532 models, but it is quite apparent that the same silver screw and nut was used for the Foden, Guy and Leyland models at least until April 1953 when the nut was changed to one less obvious. (The "blued" darker nut appears to be also more rust resistant than the earlier nut.)  I do have a 905 Foden Chain Lorry inspected in January 1955 with a silver nut, but I think this is not an original.

Does anyone have an earlier date than May 1953?

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

20160902/967/1228

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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DTCA MemberUSA

With all the technical talk about this nice Foden Flat Truck, there were few photos of the actual model in a proper pose, so herewith........

        Best regards,  Terry

 

 

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Surprise! Mine happen to be exactly the same, Terry, shown below from a slightly different point of view. Kind regards, Jan 

dinkyfan's picture
dinkyfan
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Jan----well, we both knew we shared many collecting interests.......I guess we shouldn't be too surprised!
Best regards, Terry

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