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janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

-687 25 pounder Ammunition Limber (1957-70)

Last week I happened to find a true clone of the Dinky Toys no. 687 Trailer for 25-pdr Gun, in a flee market.

As you can see they are like two peas in a pod, the Dinky on the left the other one on the right. Now it’s not so haphazard, because every now and then I’m looking for some new additions for the items of my 'War Technology' Series, which were made in the USSR in the 1970s and 1980s. And this is one of them. ‘War Technology’ is the name M.C. Barres Baker translated from the original Russian brand name of the range, of which some models are shown below. In fact, an extensive seven page article was written by him, as published in Model Collector 6:1 of November 1992 (pp. 13-19). So if you want to know more about them, I refer to that fine article. The scale of the models is between 1:60 and 1:87, so the models have an average size somewhere between the Dinkies and Matchbox models.

This trailer model has exactly the same size as the Dinky, so it’s 1:60 scale. The similarity is so striking that one might presume that the Russian designer had the Dinky in his hand while preparing this model. The differences, though, are obvious too.

The backs show that the Russian model is without any detail, flat, whereas the British original shows many details. The towing hook is a large plump extension of the main casting.

And the base is easy too, without any baseplate. The number is visible: 40K, and the wheels are all black plastic. Still, it’s a nice little toy, not too badly done. In fact, this goes for the whole series, seven of the nineteen sturdy models shown below. Easy to see that the trailer (below, right) has the biggest scale.

In fact there is also a 25-pdr Gun in this series, which shows the same close similarity with the Dinky Toy, no. 686. I wonder how many look-alikes and clones have been made after all, of well known army models made by Dinky. Perhaps others can describe or show other examples of this Trailer for 25-pdr Gun?

Kind regards, Jan Werner

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Reviving Jan's Thread on the 687 Trailer for the 25-lb Field Gun that he posted on 21 November 2009, attached is a photograph of the base of two that are in a trade box of six models.
Notice the top trailer has the Sales Number inscribed on the right side of its base plate , whereas the trailer below has no sales number.
Check out the models in this trade box, four of the model's base plates face to the rear, with two at the top facing to the front. Minor I know, interesting, yes, of interest to everyone, a resounding no!

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

On this one the base plate has been folded the wrong way round. Is it a single model or was it issued in quantity ?

A few models have symetrical base plate which can be fitted in any direction and can not be considered as variations :

14 a B.E.V. electric truck
80 a E.B.R. Panhard

Do you know any other ones ?

Jacques.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Jacques . . . Actually, your 687 is how Meccano intended the base plate to be affixed. It has not been "folded the wrong way round", as following careful scrutiny of my 687 with the sales number shows it to have a hole through the folded part of the base plate on the inside at both ends through which the axle was intended to pass. Your example is more than likely one of the many in the first production batch which was actually given the correct treatment. Perhaps yours is less common and its value could be higher than those with the axle outside the base plate.

Obviously it was discovered by the ladies on the assembly line that the base plate UNDER the axle rather than THROUGH the base plate was far quicker and as productivity reigned supreme, more 687s could be completed in a shorter period of time with the tolerance between the BP and the axle being negligible so there was no need to spend time threading the axle through the holes in the body of the trailer as well as the holes in the base plate.

That takes care of the base plate with the sales number. The unnumbered base plates on the other-hand, do not appear to have a hole through which the axle can pass, or at least that is what I can ascertain while looking through the hole for the "hook". Apparently a new base plate was prepared for some reason, deleting the holes on both folded ends as well as deleting the sales number. Just why the Sales Number was deleted is yet another Meccano Mystery!

The shape of the base plate is such that it could be fitted either way, so there is no question of this being a variation - it is just how the ladies picked up the die-cast body, whacked the base plate on, threaded the axle, and then secured the wheels to the axle. Still, it is yet another interesting topic.

Bruce

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce,

Thank you for your explanation. This means that the casting has been modified and uses a tyni bit less zamac, the base plate uses less metal, it is not folded and much quicker to assemble. The girls are happyer.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Jacques

As far as I can see inside the trailers, (without having to resort to tearing them apart!) the base plates for all of them are identical, the only exception being the one carrying the sales number which has a hole drilled through the folded part which the axle would have been passed, as per your example. There is no difference in the casting also from what I can see, so the amount of zamac/mazak is most likely the same.

The only question remaining is the purpose behind deleting the sales number from the base plate.

Also it would be nice to see how common or less common your trailer is having the axle on the interior rather than exterior. I examined the trailer that came with my 697 25-Pounder Field Gun Set and it has the axle on the exterior of the base plate. I received the set for my birthday in December 1957. (I was hoping it would have been the same as yours! :laugh: )

Bruce

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce,

In each corner of the inside of the trailer are bos on wich the base plate rests. When the change was made to the flat base plate, these had to be reduced in hight.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Jaques, talking about symmetrical base plates: you may like this picture demonstrating the full symmetry of the B.E.V. Electric Truck base plate.

Kind regards, Jan

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Jan,

Thank you for the picture, are those base plates from your to be 14b B.E.V. electric truck trailers ?

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Your're quite right Jacques, another project that did not materialize in the past time.

Now I realize that I sold the main vehicle which I had painted in BR maroon, so I fear this project is born dead ...

Nevertheless, enjoy the remains of it! Kind regards, Jan

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Come on Jan, you are retired now and you should get on with this project when you have finished refurbishing your display cabinets. You can easily get an other 14 and paint in BR maroon at the same time as the trailers.

Jacques.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

Jacques, I have a very long 'to-do-list', but I'll add this one far below! Kind regards, Jan

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

dinkycollect wrote:

Bruce,

In each corner of the inside of the trailer are bos on wich the base plate rests. When the change was made to the flat base plate, these had to be reduced in hight."

Jacques

Getting back to the original topic as the last few posts are slightly "off topic", I fully understand what you are saying, in that a close examination has revealed the existence of the corner bosses of most of the trailers in my trade box, which shows the work needed just to change the location of the base plate from above the axle to underneath as can be seen with the images below.

Finally, I have asked this previously, but does anyone have any thoughts as to the reason Meccano dispensed with the sales number on the base plate?

Bruce

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce,

This is probably one of the many questions that will remain unanswered as probably less than half a dozen of the lads at Binns Road had the answer and most of them have probably left us already.

Jacques.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Jacques

So in essence, there are three versions of the 687 Ammunition Trailer for the 25-Pounder Field Gun:

1) Base plate above the axle and supported on four corner bosses, with the plate inscribed with the 687 sales number
2) Base plate under the axle with the corner bosses reduced in height, plate inscribed with the 687 sales number
3) Base plate under the axle with the corner bosses reduced in height, with no sales number 687 inscribed

For the fastidious collector, any of the above having the base plate reversed, front/rear.

Bruce

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Yes Bruce, this is correct but one must add the casting difference above and so far we do not know if the change of base plate position occured at the same time as changing the angles. This could increase the number of variations.

The early drawings on the July 1957 M.M. shows the trailer with the cut angles meaning that the right angles were not cut but added. This is confirmed by the fact that the die could not be modified in the other way.

As the 686 25 Pdr. gun and the 688 tractor have been fitted with plastic hubs, the limber should also be found with plastic hubs.

Once more we need the description of as many trailers as possible to know how many variations there are. All trailers seem to have treaded tyres.

The description must include :

• with or without ref. number
• base plate position above or below the wheel axle. Above means between the axle and the casting
• with or without right angle corners
• ridged or plastic hubs

My only trailer is :
• no ref number
• base plate above axle
• no right angles
• plastic hubs

The manufacturer of the actual trailer was Metro Cammel of Birgmingham ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Cammell ) a compagny well known for building most of London's underground (and many others) trains and also tanks during both world wars.

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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DTCA MemberUK

Here are four different 687 trailers

From left to right:

First the earliest, underneath the axle with a reference number, angled front corners.

Second and third, on top of the axle with no reference number - two orientations, angled front corners.

Fourth the newest, on top of the axle, matt finish, plastic wheel hubs and square front corners.

Sorry, no idea why they removed the reference number or made the front corners square.

Dave

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Thank you David for showing your trailers.

There is also one with base plate above the axle and with the ref. number.

One question remains about the most recent one, are all the trailers with square angles fitted with plastic hubs ?

Could you please provide a large picture similar to the above one of the under side of your trailer with right angle corners ?

buzzer999's picture
buzzer999
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DTCA MemberUK

Square cornered trailer image.

I have only ever seen the square cornered trailer with plastic wheel hubs.

Dave

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

David

Many thanks for this picture on which I can see that :
• the square angles do not hide the previous angles completely
• the towing ring has been reinforced
• the base plate has not been modified when it was changed from below to above the wheel axle. The two folded sides are still there.

As you can see on this picture, this limber has square angles and non reinforced towing ring, so we have a fivth variation which precedes yours.

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce,

Congratulations for this late 697 - 25 Pdr field gun set.

Is it the latest issue ?

How is the towing ring of your limber ? as 1 or as 2 ?

Are the tyres rubber as on 1 or plastic as on 2 ?

Jacques.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

dinkycollect wrote:
"Bruce,

Congratulations for this late 697 - 25 Pdr field gun set.

Is it the latest issue ?

How is the towing ring of your limber ? as 1 or as 2 ?

Are the tyres rubber as on 1 or plastic as on 2 ?

Jacques."

Jacques - Thank you for your kind and appreciated words on this set.

The 687 has the towing ring 1) and the tyres for it, the 686 and 688 are rubber. Below are some more images in slightly greater detail:


This model, based on the pencilled price of 10/3, a price that was current throughout 1967 only, provides us with a time frame when the amendment to the trailer was made with the exception of the towing ring.

Kind regards

Bruce

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Bruce,

this is exactly what I expected. Yours is the variation four out of five until we discover one more.

Could you please post a picture of the underside exactly as my pictures ? Thanks.

Jacques.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

dinkycollect wrote:
"Bruce,

this is exactly what I expected. Yours is the variation four out of five until we discover one more.

Could you please post a picture of the underside exactly as my pictures ? Thanks.

Jacques."

Jacques

How is this??

Kind regards

Bruce

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

So now we have the five variations of the 687 Trailer for 25-pdr Gun





And a real one photographed at the Royal Artillery Museum Woolwich England on April 25, 2012.

The manufacturer's name M-C.C.& W.Co Ltd is : Metro Cammell Carriage and Wagons Co Ltd.
In May 1989, the railway business was sold to GEC Alsthom (now Alstom) Group who closed the compagny in 2005.

Photos by courtesy of several members of this forum whom I thank for them.

Dinkinius's picture
Dinkinius
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AustraliaDTCA Member

Thank you Jacques for providing us with the images of all the variations for the 687 Ammunition Trailer. Nice to see that there are five variations that a collector could pursue. Kind regards, Bruce

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Both the Morris truck and the 25 pdr gun have been packed in yellow end flaps boxes. Was it also the case for the limber ? I have never seen such a box.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

No, Jacques, of this trio the limber was the only one that was never sold in an individual (end flaps) box - and, on the contrary, neither the tractor nor the gun were ever sold from trade boxes. Kind regards, Jan

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Dear Jan,

I suppose that you mean "the only one that was EVER sold" and not "the only one that was never sold".


Photo by courtesy of Adrian Nash.

Type 6 trade box having received a label at each end to use it for the ref. 687 trailer for 25-pdr. field gun.

janwerner's picture
janwerner
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DTCA MemberNetherlands

My limitations of using English seem to bother me here, but nevertheless we seem to understand each other, Jacquessmiley

Still, I am a little surprised about the trade box for the Field Gun, as that one is best known in an individual box and it was introduced such a long time past 1954 that one would not expect it still to have been packed such a way in the mean time.

Kind regards, Jan

dinkycollect's picture
dinkycollect
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DTCA MemberFrance

Jan

Yes this is peculiar, It is just some thing else which we can not understand.

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