Nice Foden Ron,
You're right the box is a winner, I still need one showing the 1st cab type, it always intrigued me that this box shows the rear bed in a totally different shade from the cab, that would have made a truly lovely 1st type chain lorry if it had been made.
Chris Warr.

Hi Chris Warr,
I don't think the colour of the deck on the 505/2 is a different shade - just my photographic inexperience with lighting.
I have done some work on the toy and swapped the back for one I bought with a box (and wrong chassis) from a New Zealand auction a while back, so both boxes have been found in New Zealand. It is more play worn that the first one but authentic for the first issue of 505/2 with dimpled stanchion ends. Besides the holes had been roughly drilled out and wondered a bit from their correct position. At least it gives me some chain for spares.
I wonder why the box illustration has the model facing to the right whereas most others face left. This carries over to the 505/2 second cab box as well.
At the risk of getting David Cooke excited again, here is the photo of the two boxes and the 505/2 as it is with a 'new' back. The name on it is Master David Cook (no 'e'!).
:)

Hi all, the recent happy acquisition of an all maroon early second type 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains (ill.1) made me grab together some pieces of information, text and pictures, which may contribute to the useful contents of this thread. Nowadays the seller of a model acquired is rarely the first owner anymore and therefore the initial provenance is mostly rather obscure. This one, however, comes from a Meccano Sales Representative, who, in his turn, bought it from one of his clients’ stock over forty years ago. Like the rest of his collection, it had not left its box ever since, lacking space for decent display (he regretted that very much having seen its present presentation in my displays). After some cleaning the model emerged bright and quite near mint.

The box is very good to excellent, without any structural damage. Apparently storage was not dry enough, because there is some slight corrosion to the model and the staples of the box are rusty. The quality control stamp (shown below) seems to be H6 3 (ill. 2, 3).

In September 1952, some half a year only after the introduction of this model of a Foden chain truck, the first type cab/chassis unit (Foden DG series) was replaced already by this second type, a model of the Foden FG6/15 with S18 cab. Of both versions the maroon chain truck is less familiar than the one finished in green, especially the first type. The all maroon 505 in its turn is slightly less common than its green counterpart.

Although useless, parallel with the introduction of the chain truck, the other flat trucks, with and without tailboard (502 and 503), also got the tiny holes in the upright board behind the cabin, for attachment of the chain ends (ill. 4). This demonstrates that all of these loading platforms were basically produced with the same mould, adjusted for the specific models. Many of the factory drawings for the Fodens could be shared for this model. The chain posts and the chain, however, were designs of their own, represented by the jobs no. 12197 (ill. 5) and no. 12198 (ill. 6) respectively and the assembly 12196(A) (drawing not known at present) for the complete model was individual. No. 12198 shows that a subcontractor, Bacco, Birmingham Associated Chain Co. Ltd., supplied Meccano with the chains. Earliest chain lorries, both 1st and 2nd type, have dimpled instead of the later rounded bases of the lugs underneath the chain posts. Instead of four clips retaining the bogie wheel axles in front of the first type, the second type uses only two, for the front axle only. The rear pair of wheel axles use the new cast in axle holes (instead of the previous four clips over there, ill. 7).

Although 1952 is the year of official introduction, the first type chain lorry (ill. 8) was advertised already in the Dutch and US catalogues in 1951 (ill. 9). I cannot confirm this for the UK 1951catalogue because I haven’t got one and no one has uploaded a copy to the website documents area yet. The UK catalogue of May 1952 already shows the second type chain lorry (in colour, green), as do the Dutch and USA catalogues (ill. 10), in black and white. The hubs for the first type chain lorries were always ridged, the second type were always grooved Supertoys hubs. The UK catalogue of May 1952, however, shows the second type with ridged hubs (ill. 11).

As far as I’m aware the cast in Dinky Supertoys name, underneath, survived for all issues. The early boxes for 505 (50505), with orange/black printed label pasted on the blue box lid, both first and second type, only show the brand name Dinky Toys (1952, the year of introduction, was exactly the year  that the Dinky Supertoys name was dropped from the boxes). In 1954 the blue striped boxes were introduced with the new number 905 but still with the Dinky Toys name only. This became ‘Dinky Supertoys’ in straight up letters end 1955/early 1956 (ill. 12). Whatever the contents, the illustration shows the green one only, a colour roundel sticker indicating the content’s colour. About 1954, besides being renumbered 905, the previously all maroon version had its wheels painted red (ill. 13), giving this rather gloomy finished model a brighter appearance (the same goes for the other maroon models, for instance the British Railways vehicles Hindle Smart Electric Lorry and the Horse Box, the Luxury Coach etc., ill. 14). The green one, with its slightly lighter green wheel hubs, remained unchanged. The black round treaded tyres, were replaced by blocked ones. Most but not all examples of the chain lorry show the ‘20’ roundel on the left rear mudguard. This did not show up anymore on the later red/grey issue, because its introduction coincided with the deletion of that sign (ill. 15).

Memo 20645, Amended Colour Schemes of 7 February 1957, testifies to the discontinuation of the maroon and green issues, in favour of the new duo tone finish ‘in place of present two colour schemes’(ill. 16, 17). A rivet replaced the screw at the rear (ill. 17), so swapping of cabin/chassis and loading platform – producing ‘rare’ fakes – became virtually impossible (ill. 18). The blue striped box was adapted with the correct illustration and the new contemporary italic lettering of the brand name. An unusual and rare exception is the blue/grey finish (ill. 19, Vectis Auctions). The red/grey issue was discontinued in 1964, being the last of the famous Foden series models to leave the Dinky Toys range, even fitted with red plastic hubs in the end (ill. 20). Examples with windows, as suggested by the 1963 catalogue illustration, are not known (ill. 21). As always, corrections and additions welcome! Kind regards, Jan

Some useful articles:

Graham Bridges, First series Foden trucks 1947-1952. In: Classic Toys 1/1 (Aug/Sept 1994).

Graham Bridges & Stewart Orr, Second series Foden Trucks part 2. In: Classic Toys 1/3 (Jan/Feb 1995).

Clive Unsworth, Dinky Toys 1st series Fodens Part 1. In: Model Collector 29/12 (Dec 2014).

Clive Unsworth, Dinky Toys 2nd series Fodens Part 2. In: Model Collector 29/13 (Christmas 2014).

Hi Jan,

Wonderfull article on a wonderfull Foden. Thanks!

Kind regards,

Rob

Jan----Another most wonderful article on a very popular Dinky Supertoys.  I remember being a youngster and having never seen a "chain lorry" here in the US, was somewhat in wonder with it.  Years later I finally got my own copy, and it has been a Foden favorite even since.  Since you provided so much history, along with very nice photography, I will only add some more details on the first model.  As you mentioned, this was only made for a short period, starting in early 1952 and was superceded by the newer model in September of that year.  Some time ago, I was able to acquire an example of this early model, and it also happens to be in green, the same color of my later example, so the two make an interesting comparison.  You will notice that my example has been dropped at some point in time, resulting in the posts on the right side being bent....and I have heard from several experts not to try and straighten them...they will break!  I have included some photos below, showing the two of them together.  There is also a photo of the underside of both of them, to show just how very different the chassis was.  The early version has the thinner axles, all of which are mounted via sheet metal clips to the chassis.  And notice that there is a raised area, where the rear wheels are located, to get the axles to the proper height.  This raised area was not needed when the newer version used diecast lugs to retain the axles.  The underside also clearly shows that the bottoms of the chain posts are indeed dimpled, as was the case until later.  Moving to the exterior views, the early model came with the ridged wheels, and of course, the cab is completely different in design and also has the distinctive colored "flash" added.  All in all, a most interesting and attractive model! 

        Best regards,  Terry

Thanks, Terry, for the first type addition and the comparison. If I'm not mistaken Rob does have both the maroon and the green ones in great condition, don't you, Rob?

With us, in NL, these remarkable eight-wheel lorries, were as 'exotic' - so exciting - as with you in the US!

Kind regards, Jan 

Hello Jan,

Yes, I have both first types 505's in virtually mint condition. My feeling is that the maroon version is the most difficult to find in this condition. I have seen only one or two others. It took my some time and the help of a friend who travelled to the UK almost weekly to find it. (Mind you, his travels were not centered around finding one Dinky Toy for me !!).

Kind regards,

Rob

Jan

What a detailed examination of the 505/905 Foden Chain Lorry!  I heartily applaud your most detailed and thorough treatise of the Foden Flat Truck with Chains.

When you wrote:

Although 1952 is the year of official introduction, the first type chain lorry (ill. 8) was advertised already in the Dutch and US catalogues in 1951 (ill. 9). I cannot confirm this for the UK 1951catalogue because I haven’t got one and no one has uploaded a copy to the website documents area yet. The UK catalogue of May 1952 already shows the second type chain lorry (in colour, green), as do the Dutch and USA catalogues (ill. 10), in black and white. The hubs for the first type chain lorries were always ridged, the second type were always grooved Supertoys hubs. The UK catalogue of May 1952, however, shows the second type with ridged hubs (ill. 11).

I also do not have a 1951 UK Dinky Toys catalogue, but I do have something that does help to confirm when the Foden Flat Truck with Chains was released.

Pictured below is one page of a 3-fold Meccano Toys of Quality leaflet with a print date of October 1951 (16/1051/25) showing the 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains priced at 9/11.  The leaflet issued in June 1951 does not contain this model. I am uncertain whether price leaflets were issued for the period July to September 1951.

On 6 September 1997, Vectis Auctions at the Civic Hall, London Road, Guildford, Surrey, auctioned two 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains, one in green and the other maroon. The maroon example, Lot 901 sold for ₤470 and the green example in superb A to A+ condition Lot 900 fetched ₤1600.  This lot had the original date of purchase of November 1951 added in ink to the base of the box.

Also pictured below is the description of both models from the Vectis catalogue (now this is how Dinky Toys auction descriptions SHOULD be written!) together with an image of the model itself with apologies for the quality. The September 1997 auction was the fifth under the new ownership of Bryan Goodall.

Anyway, the above does confirm that the 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains was issue in 1951, at least by October.

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

20160424/915/0325

Bruce----Always nice to add more information, and your store of old price sheets, etc, is amazing and almost always adds important info to our knowledge base.  From everything we can find/see, it appears that the first type Foden Flat Truck with Chains was possibly made for only 8-9 months.  I am glad that I was able to find one in pretty good condition, as they do not come up very often.

               Best regards,  Terry

Jan

Further to my recent Post, I concentrated on the UK catalogues and leaflets to provide a more accurate time frame when the 505 became available. There was however a 1951 catalogue issued for Australia with the print code of 5/451/25, April 1951. (An image of the front and rear covers is below.) Although the 505 Foden Flat Truck with Chains makes a pictorial appearance in this catalogue does not mean the 505 was issued in April 1951. Rather this is yet another case of Meccano’s forward planning for its export markets.  Australia was roughly 3 months sailing from the UK with most vessels departing from Tilbury on the Thames with less frequent sailings from Southampton.  So, with a print run in April 1951 add two to three weeks in transit within the UK, then add a further 3 months, plus another two weeks in transit on the arrival of the carton containing the 25000 catalogues, and no doubt these would have been incorporated within E G Page & Co (Sales) Pty Ltd usual orders for all the Meccano products, then the time frame could have been well over four, most likely five months, which would bring the catalogues on the shelves of the various Meccano dealers in Australia in about September or early October. There may have been a sales embargo until the 505 models had arrived.

This last page is interesting in that the five other models listed with the 505 as "RECENT ADDITIONS TO THE DINKY TOYS RANGE" all went on sale in the UK in April 1951. (I received my Rover and Austin Atlantic for Christmas 1951.)  So, is it really possible that all these were shipped in time including the 505 for them to be on hand when the catalogue became available in Australia? Perhaps the maroon version was the only colour available to be sent to Australia ahead of the UK market which no doubt went out with other exported models to the Far East, especially Singapore and Hong Kong. This would then explain the availability of the maroon version being greater in the Far East including Australia than in the UK.

With the Australian price of 16/6, I can fully understand why I never received a 505!

As always, speculation and theories will continue unabated now and into the future!

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

201600502/916/1206

Hi Bruce, thanks for your familiar extensive documentary support! All your additional documentary evidence supports my suspicion that the production time span of the first type chain lorry should be shifted to about one quarter of a year  earlier indeed, contrary to all early 1952 introduction references in literature. This complies with the unchanged use of the older Dinky Toys hubs on first types (and the premature incorrect representation of a second type with those Dinky Toys hubs in the May 1952 catalogue). Moreover, it would imply that the Dinky Toys brand name appeared slightly earlier on the Supertoys boxes than supposed before. 

Rob, thanks for the picture of your first type marvels! However, I thought they deserve a slightly better photographic treatment, so, please, forgive some superficial photoshopping correction. Kind regards, Jan 

Hello Jan

While checking through my original Forum drafts, I found the following on the 905 Foden Flat Truck with Chains that I prepared back in March, and I think I never got around to posting it! At least a fairly extensive search has failed to reveal its existence in the Forum.

Here it is!

 I refer you to comments #18-21 that can be found in the Auction Catalogue Descriptions topic.  You are perfectly right with there being a second colour scheme of blue and grey for the 905 Foden Flat Truck with Chains. It was my original intention to write only a little about the blue and grey version, and then the deeper I delved, the more confusing this issue reached and the longer this story became!

In reality, I have always considered the 905 Foden Flat Truck with Chains in mid blue and grey as an “accidental issue” rather than a very limited normal issue judging on the number of examples seen in recent years. Using Vectis Auctions as a barometer of its availability, since 1996 a total of only six have passed through their hands of which one with yellow Supertoys hubs has made it twice, so in effect, only five models in 20 years. It is interesting that the first example appeared in Vectis in 2008, and according to the 11th Edition of Ramsay’s British Diecast Model Toys Catalogue published in October 2005, the first one seen was one that sold through eBay in 2004. In fact, I observed another example without its box that was also sold through eBay in January 2005 and the photographs below are of that model. (Whether this is the same model referred to by Ramsay I have no idea.) Add this example to the other six and that brings the total to only seven in eleven years – an extra-ordinarily small number.

Even if one were to triple the number of blue and grey models seen by taking into consideration other auction houses and swap meets that is only 21 models in 20 years.  One then has to ask the obvious question – “How come?”  Then the next question, “Where have these models been before 2004?” – hibernating?!!" Hopefully I may be able to provide an answer, if not, at least the opening of a decent, thought-provoking discussion!

When one checks Richardsons “bible” “The Great Book on Dinky Toys” this colour scheme does not rate a mention, although the “bible” does contain many inaccuracies, such as the statement that the 905 in red and grey was the only Foden Chain Lorry of all three colour schemes (maroon, green and red) that were packaged in boxes marked Dinky Supertoys. This statement is incorrect as both the maroon and green versions were packaged in a DINKY SUPERTOYS box as shown with the example below having a red colour end spot.

And especially the green version that has been part of my collection for many, many years, since 1957:

The 2nd Series Foden Flat Truck with Chains virtually continued the colour schemes established by the First Series, maroon and green, with the major difference with the Second Series in that both colours had an almost identical production run although as with the First Series, the green version is more common than the maroon. The last example seen of the 905 in maroon with red hubs has been one quality inspected in July 1956. By at least August 1956 it can be assumed that Meccano had decided to limit the colour choice for the Foden goods-carrying range to a single colour with dark green winning for the 905 unless further maroon examples can be found with later quality inspection dates. This change to a single colour had been previously carried out firstly with the 902 Flat Truck by December 1953 followed by the 903 Flat Truck with Tailboard by March 1954 (until July 1956 when the colour of the back was changed and then in July 1957 when the dark to violet-blue was changed to a deep blue with fawn back, but still basically a single colour scheme) and finally the 901 Diesel 8-Wheel Wagon in June 1954. The last green 905 located was inspected in March 1957.

Apparently, a decision was made in about March or April 1957 that the 905 needed brightening up. The UK catalogue for 1957 with a print date of June 1957, is a possible indicator when the change of colour occurred as the picture of the 905 is of the red and grey version. Allowing for artwork etc associated with that catalogue, one can assume that work preparing this catalogue started in May, probably earlier. The earliest inspection stamp I have found for the red and grey version has been July 1957. As the box is basically identical to the previous box, with the only noticeable change apart from the artwork and colour rendition of the model being from block to italic for DINKY SUPERTOYS, (there are other minor changes as well) with the notation on the side panel being retained should at some point in the future another colour be introduced.

The above may be an example of a) the seller obtaining any box in order to achieve a better price – or b) the first examples of the red and grey version were packaged in boxes originally intended for the green version. This may not necessarily be correct as only these two have been seen over the past 20 years, hardly confirming b) as a possibility.  Only a quality inspection stamp can ascertain if b) is correct! I would opt for a) in this case. (I had tried downloading an image of another example, and although its size was comparable to the above image, the file could not be downloaded as “it was too large”!

So far so good!

But what about the colour blue with grey back? Without concrete evidence such as a quality inspection stamp or even a price that can be seen on the boxes for those five sold through Vectis all we have at present is pure conjecture as to when this scheme was used.

The first possible scenario could be a small trial run of mid blue and grey back being carried out in or around April-May 1957. It was then considered the base colour blue was too similar to the 903 tailboard particularly after July 1957 when its shade of blue would be changed, so that scheme was rejected and a decision was then made to make the colour red and grey. The similarity between the red selected and the 901 would have been inconsequential as the 901 was about to be withdrawn. However, if it was a trial issue, then the next question would be: Why are the five known boxed examples packaged in a box showing the red and grey version which would indicate the red and grey had already been selected?

The second possible explanation is a brief run was made using excess blue paint that had been prepared for the tractor unit of the 982 Pullmore Car Transporter. This model’s days were numbered when the 983, 984, 985 combination arrived in July 1958.  The 982 soldiered on until at least January 1963 (listed in a price leaflet, with it still being included in the October – December 1962 Dealer Order Form) before it was finally deleted. It is therefore a possibility that when production ceased for the 982, excess paint was still available for this model, so a decision was made to use it up on a short run of 905s. Although for this scenario to have taken place does seems a little implausible as excess paint could still have been used on several other Dinky Toys in production during this period that carried a similar blue, the 230 Talbot-Lago Racing Car and 179 side flash for the Studebaker President Sedan, or even the upper colour for the 175 Hillman Minx, although I do not know the paint number for the blue in question.

The third and most creditable scenario brings in the 903 with Tailboard.  The similarity of the blue of the last issue of the 903 and of the 905 cannot be discounted, (see the photos below) 

But when exactly was the 903 in mid blue produced as this may be a good indicator as to when the 905 in blue and grey was produced? Going on quality inspection stamps seen so far, the 903 in mid blue and fawn back was quality inspected in July 1956, September 1956, January, February, March and December 1958. Quite a widespread period, but perhaps the models in July and September 1956 can be discounted as these were during production of the maroon (to July 1956) and green until March 1957 in the older style box with block printing for DINKY SUPERTOYS – a possible instance of someone obtaining “a” box just to add value to the blue and fawn 903 Tailboard model they were selling. This then leaves January to March and December 1958 as the most likely time-frame.

I think that at some stage, with both the 903 and 905 being in production simultaneously a surplus of 903 blue body-chassis and an under-supply of the tailboard together with an over-supply of the 905 flat trays with chains, it was decided to marry the 905 flat tray with chains to the blue body-chassis of the 903 just to complete the production demand. There may have been an extremely small inconsequential quantity involved which would not have created any real problems, thus accounting for how few have been seen in recent years. This scenario may have even been repeated on several occasions.

Of the three suggestions above, I would lean towards the last, a run during the production of the mid-blue 903 with Tailboard, as the colours are, for all intents and purposes, identical.

All this conjecture would be unnecessary had Vectis included the quality inspection details inside the boxes for those five models it has sold providing of course box and model have never been separated and more importantly that the boxes did in fact contain a quality inspection stamp! Hopefully we will be able to obtain quality inspection stamps that in time will provide an answer to the time frame.

Still, after all this prattle, it does not alter the fact that the blue and grey version was more than likely just an “accidental issue” but still worthy of a place in the story of the Foden Flat Truck with Chains. At this point, I still have not answered my second question, “Where have these models been before 2004?”

Finally, I am including those images of my red and grey example that I included in the Auction Catalogue Descriptions topic.

Kind regards

Bruce   (150)

20161310/1004/2355

Thank you, Bruce, for your fine explanation, especially as colours is concerned. The 1957 Amended Colours List makes the impression that both colours, maroon and green, were discontinued at the same time (the list is of 5 February 1957) and succeeded immediately by the red and grey one, but that may be official policy, practice being slightly different, and we know that implementation of the contents of lists and drawings like this may often have taken place either before or some time after the approval date of those documents. Kind regards, Jan  

Bruce---Another wonderful study of a Dinky Toy model and its long history.....very nicely done!  And your study of the boxes as well as sales literature certainly help provide much more insight as to what went on and when.  The Chain Lorry has always had a special fascination for me....I suppose those neat chains made it special.  Here in the states, I have never seen anything like that, so it was a novelty for kids here.

    And by the way, how do you get your number of posts, etc, to show below your name?  I went back to the home page, and did not see any instructions on how to do that.

       Best regards,  Terry

HAPPY EASTER FOR ALL MEMBERS

REGARDS

LUIS ROSSI

Thank you Luis, and Felices Pascuas/ Buona Pasqua to you.